More stupid questions from a newbie

[cranky]

Okay so I drew up a quick and dirty design based on what I think charles was suggesting the 12 inch dim. is ID. outside of pipe is not shown black block is a firebrick floor

I have no idea how to calculate volume but the 8" inside diameter by 9 inches long should be about 550?

I know it is heavier than need be.......and maybe taller than need be.....but does this look like a feasible design? 

Drawing1.pdf

[Charles R. Stevens]

Tho I have been considering an arch, i know the 12" round with a 1" burner is a proven design. 

710qi for a 12" with 2" of insulation. (Pi times Radius square times depth

an arch would be Pi times half the average of the radius square times the deapth, unless it has a rectagular component then calculate separately with times hight times depth.

[ThorsHammer82]

From your measurements if you make it a rectangle not an arch you're at 391.68 CI. but it's less than that with the arch. Probably pretty close to that 350 CI target actually.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Did I have a brain fart and use the formula for spheres, Thor?

[cranky]

xxxxxx forbidden

well charles one of us is miscalculating , or we are calculating two different equations....a 12" round pipe with two inches of insulation will decrease the diameter to 8" 

so all together we have 4*4*3.1416*9= 452.......I believe you only insulated half of your pipe with two inches and forgot the opposite side will also have 2 inches on it

Please correct me if I am wrong

by my calculations one inch of insulation would bring us up to 706 or so 

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yep, its after me hot and heavy

[ThorsHammer82]

what did you use? LxWxH is a rectangle. so 5.44x8x9= 391.68

if you want to do the actual math follow this link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_segment

Edited September 1, 2015 by ThorsHammer82

[Frosty]

This is a fun read!     I'm staying out of it.

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

Cake aHR Square, Pie aHR Round. NOT the same as volume of a pipe, Pie aHR Squared x the length. Inches to inches or MM to MM, it works the same.

Eye don't thingk Thor should use a Rectangular phormula, on a Peace Pipe. Same as mixing up Hinches and McMetrics.

If you don't have doors, will that alter your McCalculations?????????

I can't tell if the river is running Fast or Slow, Enjoy the RIDE!!!

Neil

[Quarry Dog]

  I wish I would have thought of wikipedia when I did that math.  I did it the hard way from some random google search websites that only gave me parts of what I needed and had to put it together myself.  I now have a circle segment formula reduced to pretty simple terms.  I'll have to post it here if I can just find the paper I wrote it on, and maybe someone can point out a glaring "V8 moment" if I had one.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Used area of a circle for 10" times 9" depth. (Pi times radius squared times 9)  forgot that 2" insulation was -4 not -2, du, lol least I had the right formula.

[ThorsHammer82]

Good Morning,

Cake aHR Square, Pie aHR Round. NOT the same as volume of a pipe, Pie aHR Squared x the length. Inches to inches or MM to MM, it works the same.

Eye don't thingk Thor should use a Rectangular phormula, on a Peace Pipe. Same as mixing up Hinches and McMetrics.

If you don't have doors, will that alter your McCalculations?????????

I can't tell if the river is running Fast or Slow, Enjoy the RIDE!!!

Neil

I used rectangle for simplicity, and to show the "maximum volume" for the nominal measurements. As the cylinder is not a true cylinder I couldn't use the formula for a cylinder or r2xPixL. And frankly don't want to do the math for the segment because simply using the rectangle formula was enough to show that the calculations were off. I then provided the needed information to find the correct volume.

Edited September 2, 2015 by ThorsHammer82

[cranky]

Okay, my math skills be lacking as they are lets set them aside for a minute while I ask the question I really want to know....

Some trial and error on my part and a few years of experiments I could maybe figure this out on my own... these questions might have been answered before in other posts, but truth be told this site is not really the most search friendly place on the net and lastly I get the feeling that most of you, Frosty, Charlies, Thor, Latticino and everyone else replying back to me have been there, done that, and I am willing to bet even have a few scars to prove it. I would just like to garner some of that experience, maybe sliding though with a few less scars :-)

After adding in 2 inches of ceramic fiber insulation I should have have a 7" dia. by 9" long forge body resulting in a fire box that is 346 cubic inches. So according to Frosty's formula for burner size, I am in the top tier of a 3/4 inch T burner..;... easy peasy not so sleazy!  Except inquiring minds need to know some things! this is where my alter ego comes in.

(1) seeing as we are near the larger size limit of a 3/4" burner would it hurt to step up to the 1" burner....other than a bit of wasted fuel usage and back pressure issue which I am assuming could be overcome with a larger opening on the ends of the forge and perhaps turning fuel pressure down a bit? 

(2) Assuming the general answer to #1 is "quit being a cranky and just use a 3/4 " stupid" would it be of any benefit to use (2) 1/2 inch burners located 3 inches from the ends in order to more evenly distribute the heat throughout the chamber?  perhaps shooting one in from each side at an angle bouncing the flame off the opposite wall to get the swirl effect from both directions? 

(3) Lets assume the answer to #2 is "Cranky you're a frigging genius why didn't I ever think of that"  Yeah I know I'm pressing my luck with this thought but how bout shooting (3) 1/2 burners in,  1 centered on the length  and two from the opposite side  2.25" on center off the first, again from an angle bouncing the flame off the opposite wall, once again in order to more evenly distribute the heat and also improve the needs of heat from being at the larger end of a 3/4" allowance?( more clarification.... center burner coming in at about 2 o'clock bouncing off wall at about 8 o'clock and two burners coming in at 10 o'clock and striking the wall at about 4 o'clock 

(4) Quit being a cranky and just use a 3/4" burner stupid

 

Second part of my question

Instead of a cylindrical forge body would it behoove me to flatten down my forge allowing for a bit more floor space and possible wider working area, you know in case I ever decide to forge a battle axe intended to slay dragons with, just for more clarification if I made  a oval forge versus a round one

[Charlotte]

consider this conversation http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/43356-first-run-with-the-ribbon-burner-forge/ 

I thought the actual design of the forge was quite nice for the intended purpose

 

[Charles R. Stevens]

I don't  know if a "D" shaped forge would be disadvantage. I have seen them made from 1/2 pipes and large mail boxes. 

[cranky]

Well good news, I did a google search for Blacksmith Organizations in Northern Minnesota and lo and behold there is one. They will be at the Western Minnesota Steam Threshers Reunion this coming weekend and so will I. I was invited to stop by, talk a few folks check out some equipment and so forth.... they have meeting first monday of each month with classes for newbie's starting at 1:30 and lasting till 5:30..... this months meeting is postponed until  the 14th due to the reunion.

so by some chance do we have any members of the Northern Minnesota Metalsmiths org here? Anyone have any indication what happens at a metalsmith's meeting? i know what we do at our car club meetings....we sit around drink beer and BS each other about how fast our cars are even though none of us ever break a speed limit

The meetings are about 100 miles from my house but i figure I could hit half of them or so perhaps more who knows?  

[Charlotte]

Can't speak for that group but meetings I've been to and events Like Threshers Reunion  folks mostly stand around talk about forging and watch someone demonstrate for the group or the crowd or both.  One of groups I was in would have three forges and anvils  going with a sale table and folks answering questions  at events.   Sometimes we would let people that were wanted to join the group try their hand at forging if they were adults and sober.

[LastRonin]

Not all groups meetings are the same, but as Frosty has been known to point out,"It's probably not a coincidence that black smithing and bull shooting have the same initials."

So, attend the ones you can and garner all the info, wisdom, experience and entertainment available.

Edited September 2, 2015 by LastRonin

[ThorsHammer82]

Why not just add a hard brick in to reduce the volume of the cylinder to a more optimal range for the 3/4" burner?

[cranky]

could do that and would be a lot simpler than my plan... but as someone pointed out to me a few posts back when I was trying to over design frosty's burner, and if I'm not mistaken it might have been yourself Thor... I have a never ending need to play with my abundance of toys, that and the fact that a fat bottomed girl...oops flat bottomed forge wont roll out from under you and no legs are needed just set it on top of a rolling tool box...

I'm not concerned about the volume of the chamber nearly as much as I am about even heat distribution .... this should be perfectly obvious but in the early days when the common farm house was heated by a wood burning cook stove located in the kitchen the kitchen was hotter then hades and yet water in the bedroom would freeze (trust me of this I know well. I grew up in this house) fondly do I recall a cold winter day waking up at 4:30 AM and everyone running down to the kitchen fast as you could dressed in whatever sleepwear you chose to sleep in and getting dressed by the stove which my uncle had gotten going for us just so we could go do our morning chores of feeding cattle and milking cows and such just to go to the house to take a shower in order to catch the bus to go to school. Which brings up another rant of Mine...Women's Lib. why do girls want it? In our house the girls took their showers first (all three of them) and ken and i got whatever cold water they left for us BRRRR The addition of a furnace in the basement and some ductwork solved this.... just like my three burner chamber does

Thanks for allowing me a trip down memory lane, now i'm gonna give those three girls a call and remind them how terribly spoiled rotten they were

How many of us are old enough to put Queen, Freddie Mercury and Fat Bottomed Girls together? I mean no disrespect to any female members :-)

[cranky]

I am simply trying to find out now what the general population considers the best shape and size... i'm seriously leaning toward the sideways D right now, I'm thinking two 4.5 by 9" firebricks for the floor with two 1 inch pieces of insulation under them would make for a very simple floor rebuild, I am also thinking that with three burners might get to temp quite a bit faster at which point shut one down if unneeded 

as for burners you notice i have quit asking about them? I have the makings now for (6) 3/4 sidearms.....(6) 3/4 T's..... and (5) 1/2 T's I'm gonna try em all and may'be sell the ones I don't want, heck I'm even thinking about making all three of my design forges to try out and the truly stupid ones set loose on the unsuspecting population of E-bay

[Frosty]

Ahh Dave your memories of the dash for the cook stove in the morning reminds me of stories my maternal Grandmother used to tell us to point out how spoiled we were. Born in 1890 on a farm in Ohio somewhere. Everyone in the family had their own toilet seat and each one had a sewn cover. They were kept behind the stove and tucked under a coat for the mad dash to the outhouse on winder days.

During my cabin in the woods days after I first moved to AK I adopted the strategy it's a good one. Then a neighbor pointed out how well a styrofoam toilet seat works, just a cesond's cold thrill when you plop your bare buns on it and it's warm. Even better! The next time they visited they noticed my styro seat behind the stove where condensation couldn't cover it in ice. Outhouses steam up the vent but out the holes so everything gets a covering of ice. Yeah, the solution is really obvious I put a plywood cover with a handle on the hole. That outhouse enjoyed a spectacular view of Mt. McKinley from the throne.

Mom had other some frightening tales of turn of the last century farm living.

Frosty The Lucky.

[cranky]

Oh man don't even get me started on outhouse stories dude, Those doggone spoiled rotten girls had a private little water closet in the corner of the basement..Sears Roebuck used to sell the darnedest things!  how bout a commode  that conveniently had a 5 gallon bucket under the seat? the princesses were allowed to use the throne in the winter months as opposed to running out to the guest house, us guys, uncle included were expected to go outside to the "boys room" And to add insult on top of the unjustness of this......I will give you three guess who's job it was to empty said honey pot!!! yes it was the guys job each one of us would do it for a week even my uncle....the one thing I can say about that dude he never asked us to do anything he wasn't willing to do himself

By the way our Shower consisted of a shower placed under the stairs going up stairs with a drain running down though the floor and making a sharp 90 degree turn headed for the outside wall which went out the wall about 10 feet and landed on the ground..... our kitchen sink was plumbed in a similar manner. For summer showers we had a 4' by 4' cement slab in the backyard next to a tree. the shower head was mounted onto this tree with a curtain going round the slab all fed by garden hoses.....this also was the "boys shower" dang those girls were spoiled I might have to call em back and complain some more.

As for the view from your own outhouse...is there a bad view of Mt. McKinley? or a better question might be...whats Mt. McKinley? I thought our gov. just renamed it back to Mt. Denali?  

[Latticino]

Don't have anything to add to the rural farmhouse stories as I'm a suburban fellow (though I do live in the snow belt). 

However, as regards your gas forge design, a bunch of the folks in my local blacksmith group built gas forges that were "D" shaped, with the flat side of the D facing down.  This flat side was indeed made of high temperature INSULATING bricks, not hard fire brick which will be a huge heat sink.  If you must use hard brick for the floor, I would recommend going with splits (that are 1/2 the standard thickness) with the same wall thickness of insulation used for the walls underneath.  Needless to say these insulating bricks are almost as prone to being eaten away by flux as insulating glass fiber, so some type of protection for that surface is recommended (thin kiln shelf, bubble alumina coating, cast Mizzou liner, high alumina split bricks...).  The forges that were built used single side firing blown burners with small squirrel cage blowers from Graingers or the like, and I believe worked quite well. 

One nice aspect to the design was the ability to remove the entire top section of the forge body to allow replacement of the floor with inexpensive and easily available insulating bricks.  Looked pretty similar to the floor of Frosty's forge shown in recent photos on this site.

[JHCC]

When my family moved to the Vermont woods in '84, we had no indoor plumbing at all, but got running water a week or so later. Until the house was finished, we showered outside under a hose.

A hot-water shower in a snowstorm is an experience I will certainly never forget.

(Oh, and I was forging with coal in an oversized rivet forge with a hand-cranked blower at the time.)