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I Forge Iron

another new guy question, heat treating


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So I have been making knives for a few years now, mostly stock removal and just looking into forging them (coal forge and hammer). I know when I get the blade down close to the size and general shape I put it in my propane forge until non magnetc (1084 steel) and need to quench the metal after heating (I use Transmission oil). I have been looking at the forum for some time and I never see anything about quenching or heat treatment. I know when I pull the metal out of the forge for knife making the steel is brittle until I temper it. Do you guys temper your stuff (projects, tools etc)> and if you do how are you doing it? 

 

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The few tongs, and non cutting tools that I have made were not quenched, just a stress relief. The cutting tools that I made were normalized, quenched and tempered at the forge.

Give the tool a brushing right after quenching, then heat and watch the oxide colors. The most fascinating temper that I have done is an edge quench, brush, then let the heat from the unquenched part of the steel run to the edge for the temper. Lots of reading available on different techniques.

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Well all the stuff I make from mild steel doesn't get heat treated; all the stuff I make from medium to higher carbon steel does even if it's just a desert normalization.  It strongly depends on the alloy and the intended use and the preferences of the user.  Like I didn't heat treat the set of Titanium tongs I forged  and did heat treat the H13 slitting chisel I forged.

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Frosty Sorry to have asked such dumb questions that you answered.    Ill keep my mouth shut from now one. Have a great one.

 

 

Your question wasn't "dumb" I just responded in kind to your reply.

No need to be a stranger, If I don't tick you off or or vise versa we aren't interacting enough. I'm a TBI survivor and don't have the filters I used to so my responses can be more . . . Whatever than necessary.

Have whatever kind of day you wish.

Frosty The Lucky.

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No one is asking you to stop asking, we are asking you to look around a bit everything you asked about is already posted, we have an entire section devoted to general heat treating, plus a sub section for blades, being thinner sections they  HT a bit differently than larger sections, and therefore need adjustments from the provided spec sheets we get from the steel mills.

Also you said "I have been looking at the forum for some time and I never see anything about quenching or heat treatment." that tells us you have not looked much

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  • 2 weeks later...

For the record, I think it's kind of silly to get irritated with folks who ask a question that was answered in another thread a long time ago. If, answering the same question a couple of times when asked by different people annoys you, just ignore the question and let someone else take up the talking stick. There's no need to tell people "that information is already covered somewhere on this forum or another one, so go look for it."

Personally I think that is counter productive to maintaining an active forum. If you want to be thought of as a teacher, and you want to be respected as one, get used to the idea of repeating yourself. It is always beneficial to go over the basics again.

Remist: There are numerous ways to temper tool steels, some folks use the eyeball method at the forge or with a torch and watch the color change, some folks look up the specific heat treating data for the specific tool steel, and specific hardness desired, and use digital electric ovens (kilns), or hot salt baths, or burying it in a mixture of bat guano and ape urine and lighting it on fire (not really) to bring the steel up to specific temps for specific lengths of time. Your question would be best answered by starting out with what tool you are talking about, then getting into a lengthy discussion (some might call it an argument) over what is the "best" steel for that tool, then that leads to another lengthy discussion about size and shape for the planned use, Finally when everyone is either exhausted or disgusted, and has forgotten what the original question was, you can bring up the subject of heat treating and get into another long discussion about quenching oils, then when you are just about to give up hope, someone will start mentioning tempering. By that time you will have gotten so much information out of these cranky old farts, you will not know where to begin. You'll probably have a "new tool wish list" several pages long and wish that you had just taken up fly fishing instead.

Oh, and don't mind Frosty, he's an all right guy when you get to know him a little better.

Edited by cliffrat
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For the record, I think it's kind of silly to get irritated with folks who ask a question that was answered in another thread a long time ago. If, answering the same question a couple of times when asked by different people annoys you, just ignore the question and let someone else take up the talking stick. There's no need to tell people "that information is already covered somewhere on this forum or another one, so go look for it."

Personally I think that is counter productive to maintaining an active forum. If you want to be thought of as a teacher, and you want to be respected as one, get used to the idea of repeating yourself. It is always beneficial to go over the basics again.

One issue that I don't see anyone addressing about that point of view...

If every time those questions were asked, all the info was given again, the data quantity that Glenn has to pay for to keep this free to us site working ( as well as it can at least) would increase greatly.

Edited by LastRonin
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Perhaps I feel a student should take a little responsibility toward getting their own education?  The question was asked and answers were posted.  You feel that is too difficult? or perhaps just to lazy to read the posted and pinned information at the top of the section right here?

If you don't think our answers are good enough, then you could follow your own advise about not posting, or better yet, write out the long evolved answer for them yourself, rather than just complaining about the rest of us that do post the answers.

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Who was complaining? I am willing to post answers as well, I just needed to know what the real question was before I answered it.

I guess you have a point about looking at the pinned thread, but the question posed at the start was basically just a conversation starter about processes. All I'm saying is if you don't want to get in that conversation, then don't. Sometimes people need more personal interaction rather than just reading a lot of data. They have taken some responsibility, they have come here and read some of the stuff and now they want to have a conversation about it with someone.

Isn't that what the forum is for? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I think a forum like this is a social gathering place. So call me weird, that's OK. Eventually, all topics will be covered and archived, and there will be no need to have an active forum at all. It can just be an online library. People can just use it to post pictures of stuff they make and talk about that. There won't be any need to actually discuss anything. Is that where you want this to go? (this is a serious question)

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I like weird, most of my friends are weird.  its normal that scares me.

The teaching thing is a two way street.  A student must do his part, I do not care about modern schools telling all the students there is no wrong answer, Surprise! there are some wrong answers, and bad opinions, and if ya screw up in a metal shop you can DIE.  When people ask questions is it usually because they want to know the answer, for the sake of expediency I will ignore the other reasons.  The way they ask can let the informed know the level of the questioner in relationship to the information requested, not to mention the signal to noise ratio can make it hard to find good info later when one is sorting through the many posts here.

Example pertaining to race cars:  "How do you control a car driving at 200 MPH"  this is a beginner question of the uninformed. But if asked "How to you deal with the lessoned down force and higher drag coefficient in a corner with high cross winds" is a very detailed question that will not be normally by asked by a casual person that has never had to deal with it. (My brother is a driver so I have heard both of these) 

In smithing we see the same things, though most don't notice it.  When a person asks and is told where the information such as HT sticky are located, and told to read them, then later they ask more questions, experienced people can tell if that person has read it or did not based on what they are asking and how. 

If you look at some older threads, you will notice many of us that hang out here near daily, spend a lot of time answering people questions.  Sometimes E-mails, phone calls,  maybe open our shops to others to help out.  I know a at least a few of us have gotten in our cars and made long road trips to help some one.  When one is very giving one can be taken advantage of, and I have to agree that it is our problem to learn how to deal with, so that part is true that we should relax or avoid posting sometimes.  At the same time some things can not be taught with words alone, a student MUST get "hands on" before they can understand what is happening, then we can help them move forward.  When we see a person posting and is not reading the given information, and not going to the shop to try it, it shows.  THAT my friend is what the problem is.

A teacher has the responsibility to teach, and the student has the responsibility to learn, If a student wants to skip classes, dont be surprised when the teacher gets upset about it when that student is taking up time and space a desiring student could be in.

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Steve, you have put me in a very unusual situation. I simply cannot find a way to disagree with anything you said. I tend to answer questions with questions, so I tried to use a humorous way to get the TS to elaborate on what he was trying to do. I guess the humor wasn't obvious, or even that funny. My bad.

As for the TS and his questions, it seems that he has been scared off the topic and is currently skulking around the other forums. So, I am not about to spend any more time on it when he's not that interested. Thanks for the chat.

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