Chinese Hammer Differences

[phabib]

I just got word from my customs broker that inspection only went as far as the X-ray.  The container has been released.  Now the freight forwarder will get the invoice for the inspection and they'll parcel that out among the people who had stuff in the container.  Once I pay that bill by overnighting a money order or company check to North Carolina they will tell the warehouse its OK to release my cargo.  The warehouse will then tell me how much they want for holding the box and loading it onto my truck for me and I'll pay that in cash when I go for the pickup.

Then I open the box, measure the spacing on the mounting bolts and dig for the foundation.  Maybe I'll turn it on a run it for just a few minutes before the foundation is ready.

[jumbojak]

I had looked into shipping some goods via container and the amount of red tape you have to go through is mind boggling! Best of luck to you in your endeavor phabib. Your arm certainly deserves a break after signing all those forms.

[Will. K.]

If the company could have traced out the bolt pattern on a piece of paper & mailed it before they shipped the hammer or given you accurate measurements of the mounting holes you might have been able to get an early start on the foundation.

[phabib]

That would have been good idea.  I'll remember that for my next power hammer.  Since the seller of our new place just left yesterday I don't think it would have helped much.

[phabib]

About that foundation.  All along I've been thinking that I'd buy some big anchor bolts like the like the Simpson SSTB and bury them in the concrete using a plywood template made from the hammer base to keep them in the right place.  Today I remembered that Simpson's Titen bolts are just about as strong and a pretty much impossible to put in the wrong place since you can just drill through the holes in the base and then screw them into the concrete.

Does someone here know how the Titens will do with impact and vibration?

Thanks.

[timgunn1962]

They look like they should do the job, but I'm always sceptical about grip being maintained with cyclic loadings in a brittle material like concrete. In a previous life installing heavy machinery, we had lots of problems with lots of different anchors right up until we started using resin anchor systems.

Some of these are remarkably cheap now and they really do work very well.

If you need specs, approvals, etc, Simpsons seem to make a number of them. If you are building the foundation, you'll have control over the material you are anchoring into, so it probably makes sense. If you are working to code, you'll probably have no option. I don't see yours as a critical application insofar as nobody will die or get maimed if the anchors fail. 

I only usually get to fix stuff down to something that's already there, and don't usually have the materials spec for the concrete I'm anchoring into. As a result I buy the stuff pretty much on price. I tend to use long lengths of studding (allthread) to ensure there's enough adhesion, even with the worst-case hole-cleaning and lowest resin performance. I usually use Polyester resin because it's usually the cheapest and I don't need to consider chemical resistance where I use them. I buy High Tensile studding (allthread) in grade 8.8 (we're metric over here), usually Bright Zinc Plated (It's mainly laziness: the BZP stuff tends to be clean and the unplated stuff tends to need the protective oil cleaning off).

Over here, the standard resin cartridge is 380ml and needs a special cartridge gun. There are also small cartridges for use in a standard mastic gun, but they work out very spendy for any but the smallest job.  

I find the resin squidges out of the hole when the studding is inserted and fills the gap between the surface of the concrete and the bottom of the item being bolted down for a useful distance around the hole. It usually helps to hold the washer down as the studding is inserted to help to force the resin onto the gap. The resin squidge means that even if you only had 3 points of contact when you placed the machine, you'll have a point/area of contact at every hole once you've bolted it down.

[JNewman]

Look up the Massey anchoring system.  It has been described here by me and I think Allen has posted a Massey installation guide.  i don't have proof but I suspect most mechanical anchor bolts will fail eventually on a hammer.  The advantages of the Massey system are the fact you are not trying to set the hammer over raised bolts, there is some adjustability, and if you ever have a bolt fail it is relatively easy to replace the bolt. 

[ironwolfforgeca]

use simpsoms tie down resin glue 2 part also, when it there ITS Really there !! I would also use pin type anchors

the ones you hammer the pin in & they spread in the hole grade #8 or better -- the Lg OD the bettter

I will have to look for that two JN mite learn a thing or two   Thanks down the road a friend is redoing two hammers & I will help him   GOT a Link ??

[JNewman]

Here is a link to my description of the Massey t bolts.  As well lots of good information on foundations for hammers, mostly larger than yours but still good information.

 

http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/35178-preparing-to-install-my-massey-3cwt/

[Alan Evans]

The Massey and Alldays' "T"bolt systems are very sound. And especially when using the bolts to hold the hammer in place over the anvil.

For what it is worth on this hammer though, I think the foundation bolts are basically to stop it from walking across the floor. My little 1CWT  self-contained Alldays worked fine with just a couple of bits of ø1 1/4" tube driven into the ground. Not held down as such. So anything will do to locate it. 

If there is any requirement for the Hammer vibration or stress to be taken by the bolts then the resin would be best fixing the bolt at the bottom of a deep hole and having a foot or two of free-to-stretch-and-spring-back bolt above it. Over a few hundred millimetres the bolt would not exceed it's elastic limit. If the resin is brought right to the top of the foundation block, although it would have maximum adhesion, the bolt would also have very little stretch. 

The longer the bolt and the deeper the hole the better, provided the bolt is free to move for the top two thirds say. 

Alan

 

[phabib]

Thank you.  That makes great sense.

The massey system with the T bolts looks really great, but seems like overkill for this setup.  There is a great video on Youtube of someone making the T bolts, the foundation and then installing the hold downs.

[Alan Evans]

My Reiter 50 kilo is bolted to a steel box filled with concrete, it was initially designed as a water tank for ease of transport to venues for demonstration purposes. It is mounted on Ø150mm (Ø6") rubber buffers which in turn sit on a sticky -ish fabric pads. It does not move.

The Alldays 1CWT is bolted to a 30mm (1 1/4") thick plate which sits on similar rubber buffers two of which are located in rings which are screwed  to the floor. The hammer just nudges across and goes no further.

The 3CWT Alldays is held together/down with the recommended "T" bolts.

As yours is designed to be moved around with a forklift I would have thought a 100mm (4") square of plywood or maybe a square of conveyor belting at each corner would be enough to take the shock out of the concrete and give sufficient friction to stop it walking.

Try the KISS solutions first, you can always increase the complexity as required later!

Alan

[phabib]

KISS is a good rule to live by.  I'll probably overdo it a bit as insurance.  I don't know anything about the slab it will be sitting on, so I'll play it safe and make a cut around the hammer and pour a deeper pad to isolate it.  I have some waffle shaped vibration isolation material.  I could put some hunks of that at the corners.  The manufacturer expects the hammer to be bolted down, and they even include the anchor bolts to cast into concrete with it.

[Alan Evans]

If you cut through the slab around the hammer you may well find that it is enough without taking out the slab and casting a thicker one. My two 50kg and 1CWT self-contained hammers are working fine sitting on an island cut out of the 6" steel reinforced floor slab. As yours is a lighter hammer I dare say it will be okay on similar. Cut out and then try the hammer at work before you go to the trouble of digging out and casting new.

But in fact I would be inclined to just fire up the hammer and see what happens. If you do get any noise transmission via floor and walls you can just isolate an island of the floor slab with a diamond saw. If the island floor slab inertia block settles or cracks that is the time to dig out and cast a foundation. 

Having established the best place for the Reiter and small Alldays I cut around them leaving a 50mm (2") air gap which I covered with a strip of 100x6mm (4"x1/4") flat which was set flush with the floor into a ledge cut with a diamond blade in an angle grinder.

My apologies, this is a slightly repetitive post, caused by not being able to edit an earlier one and then adding a specific response to your post…I vote for new forum software, this is awful.

Alan

[ianinsa]

Just. Bear in mind that a 'typical ' factory floor in China is in the region of 70mm thick on a well compacted base, that's a dash less that 3" so probably heaps less that a typical slab in the USA.

So consider following Alan's sound advice? As he said you can always 'upscale complexity '  

[phabib]

My attempts to say I'll take Alan's advice in the other topic he started vanished without a trace.  I plan to cut a line around the hammer to give it a bit of isolation and leave it at that unless the pad its on falls apart.  I can always lift the hammer and dig out later if I need to.  My back already feels so much better from all of this avoided work.

Thanks for the help.

[christheblacksmith]

On 7/23/2015, 1:35:06, phabib said:

I'm investigating purchase of a power hammer directly from China.  I'm leaning toward a 25kg hammer with the 2 piece design.  They all look like they're based on the same design but I'm sure there are quality differences between the factories.  Do people here know about any factories or brands that have a reputation for being particularly good or bad?

Thanks for any input.

striker,excellent

[Alan Evans]

A single saw cut around the hammer will provide the isolation/vibration break. However, I did a double cut down to the plastic/Visqueen and removed 50mm (2") of concrete in order to prevent the gap being bridged by gravel or metal bits falling in. And being wide enough to run the vacuum cleaner nozzle along for easy cleaning.

The floor saw was only a few pounds to hire and did the job in a morning.

Alan

[phabib]

The gap and cover sounds like a good plan.

I know someone who owns a concrete sawing company.  He once loaned me a monster handheld concrete saw that had a 20" blade powered by a hydraulic motor.  The power came from an external pump operated by a 20ish HP engine.  It was amazing to slice through foot thick concrete like you would through lumber with a circular saw.

[phabib]

I'm in some sort of customs limbo and no one can tell me how long it will last, or how much it will cost me.

I got a notice from customs that my package was cleared and I could pick it up.  4 days later, it was still not received by the warehouse.  I checked with the freight forwarder and the story is that my package was cleared after the X-ray, but there are 14 people's stuff in that container and one or more of the others was selected for a full search.  So the container is still sitting somewhere, sealed up, in line to be searched.  When they open it, my stuff can come out with no further questions.

I don't know if my costs stops at the X-ray or if I'm going to be hit up for my share of the extra hauling, demurrage, and search expenses that was caused by one of my container mates.  I have heard that the line for the physical search is 2-3 weeks long.

[HWooldridge]

The attack in Paris has probably slowed things - everyone is being cautious with imported items.

[KRS]

Take a good camera with you when you pick it up, just in case you have to document any damage from transport or inspection.

Don´t know how well X-raying works with something massive like a power hammer.

[phabib]

I'm not much on physics, but its actually gamma rays that are used if it makes any difference.  

[phabib]

The container got opened and my box into the warehouse yesterday.  This morning I got the bill for my part of the X-ray check and I wired payment for it right away.  Within a couple of house I got confirmation that it was received from the freight forwarder and that they'd be sending out the release.  I should be able to pick up tomorrow about 20 minutes from my work.  I'm trying to arrange use of a tractor with fork for Saturday to unload it.

[blackmat]

Hi,

Probably it is a bit late to tell my story, but anyway it has a happy end. I bought Anyang c41-40 directly from factory in 2011. Everything went smoothly, Chinese salesman was professional. I made a concrete foundation twice as big as factory instructions tells; with 50mm gap between foundation and workshop floor. The gap is filled with styrofoam and closed with steel, no vibrations transmitted around workshop. I fixed the powerhammer to the foundation with Hilti epoxy anchors, much more simple than sticking anchors into fresh concrete. There is one downside when you buy directly from China - maintenance - you are on your own. And be sure to check every screw before first run.
After four years of use, I'm very satisfied with it.