HJP

Preparing to install my Massey 3cwt

Recommended Posts

A year ago i bought this hammer (its a relatively new hammer build in 1967 and retired end 1998) and have  been slowly doing things to it to get it ready to install , i even ,with the help of Woody, tracked down the blacksmith who operated the hammer from new at the Bundaberg sugar mill.     Between jobs and finnish building my house ,it took longer then expected ,but doesnt it always? life gets in the way.But it gave me a chance to accumulate a whole lot of questions,as well as solving some of them .the ones that are left i would like to bring up here and seek some answers. I am 194 cm or 6 foot 4inches tall and iam not keen to bend down too low ( for lots of money yes but...) so the options i see is to raise the hammer (or dig a trench around it :rolleyes:) only kidding.  and put it on hard wood beams  lets say 150mm high . or  raise the concrete slab  150mm up ,in either case ,would it be advisable to put a thinn layer of  a softer playwood under it as well ,to make sure it imbeds level? next Q. removable anchor bolts,are there any plans around ,what size ,diameter,length, mild steel ,high tensile etc? Although, I am in an industrial estate ,but the hammer will only be about 8m from the boundry to my neighbours so I would like to put the anvil on a shock absorber , is there an Australian supplier? and what alternatives are there? Is conveyor belt rubber a good idea? re concrete i think i follow what is recommended  in the Massey booklet " Instructions for Erection Working and Maintenance".Are there any more detailed books around covering these subjects? is there anything else to consider re installation?    am trying to add some pictures but its not working . will do so in the near future  . Cheers Hans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Hans

 

Assuming a couple of major factors here; a clear space type hammer and that you are looking at industrial use of it, given its size

 

Massey have recommended Tico S for the isolation pads and wall lining beneath and around the inertia block, and Tico PF / PA under the anvil, the prices of which is significant, to me in the fairly recent past and that would be my best advice. Isolation matting from Fabreeka was also suggested and other similar materials from James Walker and Specthane as well. Also suggested was 100mm of well-fitted sound good quality timber under the anvil, which was the method used until the rubber materials took over in the 1950's. There are resellers of these materials, and others to choose from too, in Australia, so you could search for them fairly easily on-line. Another option is a product known as M164 isolation material, from an Australian company based in Victoria, with some knowledge of its use as isolation material under power hammers. I've seen one hammer with this stuff under it and it works very well to isolate the inertia block from the surrounding flooring. It was perhaps overdone, as the hammer literally wobbles in use, but there is almost no effect transferred to the surrounds either

 

Fine tuning the isolation material could be done by being able to lift the inertia block out of the pit, removing or adding isolation sheeting and packing as needed with steel sheet, if you have the lifting facilities, to get optimal isolation, without the excessive machine movement. If not, talk to the supplier and provide them all the info they need to design the installation for you. The design of isolated inertia blocks is involved and having some latitude for adjustment to fine tune things is really worthwhile, hence the suggestion to consider a removable inertia block

 

John Nicholson knows what he is about and there is little point in re-inventing the wheel. Despite the cost of the drawings and information packages available, the information they contain is proven and has been widely used over decades. The amount of time you might use chasing different options is time not spent forging - that is making money to pay for the installation. If you decide on something that performs badly, you are in a fair spot of bother! Particularly if you have cast the inertia block inside the pit with no thought to being able to remove it simply by lifting it out. This is a can of worms to pop open in this post but, if you would like a dissertation, you need only ask...

 

In short, look at the best installation advice, which is from Massey, in the form of drawings. Reinforced pit on compacted fill, formed outside and inside, correct isolation materials lining it, a correctly sized inertia block cast inside it against recommended isolation materials, with the facility to remove the block, proper bedding timbers under the hammer standard [the base of the machine] and further appropriate isolation material under the anvil is the best way to limit vibration transfer

 

The thing to consider most closely is the cost. This style of installation will not be cheap. Also, your hammer use might not dictate this sort of installation. A big lump of concrete in the ground might very well do. Some people just sit hammers up to 5cwt cs on a sound concrete floor, resting upon packers and off they go. Ground type / floor strength and worries about the neighbours are probably the main factors that will guide your final decision, which is entirely yours to make

 

As for a better working height consider these choices

 

1 Raise the top of the inertia block above the floor by the amount you need to get the upper surface of the tup die where you want it, allowing for bedding timbers, tooling and "normal" material sizes to be  forged etc. This will provide for a shallower hole and pit - you keep the inertia block depth the same as recommended, just don't put it as far into the ground. This saves digging and some concrete. Downside, it does leave the inertia block poking out of the floor if you move the machine later. If it is a 'forever' installation on you own place, so what? If you are installing in a rented space... read your contract!

 

2 Pack under the hammer and anvil to raise the assembled machine, with the deductions allowed for as above, off the top of the inertia block set level with the floor. If you decide to move the machine, you could leave the inertia block behind and not have to worry about a high strength concrete block poking 150mm out of the floor. Downside, if the packers are not very well bedded to each other, there may be excessive play between the layers resulting in an unacceptable degrees of movement of the hammer, the anvil and / or the two parts to each other and perhaps an overhead crane

 

3 Dig a trench. A possible, but stupid, idea, clearly made in jest!

 

4 Perhaps you could jump off the top of the hammer a few times, thus upsetting your legs to the appropriate length? Really, would anyone consider that as legitimate advice?! Obviously this is NOT advice anyone should consider as serious, much less follow

 

Many people just pour concrete into a hole in the ground - despite being told this is potentially a poor method - and expect it to prevent all vibration from being transmitted to the surrounds. When it does not, they have issues that are expensive and difficult to rectify. For those who follow sound advice the issues are minimal. For those who decide they know best, or mistake bad advice for good and follow it without question, good luck and expect to hear "I told you so" when moaning about the neighbours complaining about unwelcome vibrations! Horses may be lead to water, but drinking is their choice. This method will nonetheless reduce vibration transmission, and the bigger the block, hence the larger the mass, the better, but it you want to reduce vibrations to the least possible level, you need to isolate the hammer, its anvil and the inertia block from the surrounds! Despite the negatives, this may in fact be all that is required beneath your hammer. It depends on the floor or ground type, the expected hammer usage and the neighbours inclination to be difficult or pleasant

 

Conveyor belt is cheap, relatively easy to come by and handle and used by a lot of people. It is a poor choice, transmits vibration readily, especially if it is the steel wire rope reinforced type, can and will break down over time, especially if you are using the hammer to capacity over long periods of forging and is better left on the conveyor frankly. The canvas reinforced belt is marginally more effective in isolation of vibration but no where near effective enough for me to recommend it and also breaks down. It gets hot with repeated application of impacts and crumbles, before ultimately delaminating. The crumbs migrate and eventually the anvil tilts or begins to rock. Doesn't sound like fun to fix, does it? I am reliably informed this style of material results in a very different "feel" when forging, compared to the recommended materials, particularly with larger hammers

 

Massey's drawings show removable T-headed hold down bolts placed into sockets in boxed tubes inside the inertia block and I can't recommend them highly enough. If you drill and glue hold downs after casting, or cast them during the pour, only to have one break in service... Not fun to fix. I would also suggest not using expanding masonry anchors. These work by pushing against the adjoining concrete and do not tolerate oscillating loads at all well. They work loose as soon as the concrete they are pushing against breaks away, whereas the chemical anchors and those cast in during the pour do not. But, chemical, like cast-in hold downs, are a pain to replace if one breaks

 

Concrete grade is important and again, the Massey booklet you refer to is a good source on information on the correct grade and make up

 

One thing you might want to add to your considerations, which is rarely mentioned on this forum or anywhere else for that matter, is a sump of some sort, or free drainage facility of the inertia block pit. If the water table is high enough, over time you might get water entering the pit. Even a broken pipe, a hose left running, overflowing dunny, whatever, can lead to water in the pit. Sealing the top of it to the surrounding floor - assuming a concrete floor here - should stop water getting in - again, covered in the Massey drawings. However, "it" does happen and just allowing enough room to poke a wet and dry vac tube down the side of the block to the bottom of the pit will make life easier in the long run

 

Think about this. Cast a 50mm PVC tube vertically in the inertia block clear of the foot print of the hammer standard. If you put a 100 to 50 reducer on the bottom end of the pipe, like a very long funnel with the big end facing down, with a piece of polystyrene jammed into it, you will only need to break up the polystyrene plug with a piece of rod after the block is cured and you will have that sump. 40mm PVC will fit down the 50 and also be a neat fit to the average wet or dry vac hose. Cap the top end of the 50, which should also be in a 100 to 50 reducer but poked through to reducer far enough to enable fitting a cap to it, but not so far as to be proud of the upper surface of the inertia block. Then, if you must roll or skid the hammer or anvil, the plastic pipe won't be in the way and get damaged. Probably a bit too much detail there, but there you go...

 

If your site permits, you could plumb a drain line out of the bottom of the pit to a waste water disposal point

 

Finally, there are plans out there for inertia blocks that are T-shaped for forging hammers. These hold the machine and anvil in the usual way and are in turn supported on isolators under the horizontal arms of the T-shape. Like a T sitting in a U... These isolators are then supported by the vertical walls of the pit into which the vertical part of the T-shaped inertia block projects. The idea is to get the centre of gravity of the assembled machine and inertia block into the same plane as the isolation supports. This prevents the hammer assembly from 'nodding' in operation, which can occur when the entire assembly sits on the very bottom face of the inertia block, thus becoming top heavy if you like. Think bloke in a manhole, resting his weight on his elbows. The pendulum effect then reduces overturning versus one of those egg-shaped "knock it down and it pops back up" punching bag toys. Because you are looking at raising the hammer's working height, it might be possible to make something like this, which would result in the isolators being accessible at floor level for adjustment and maintenance and a far simpler pit construction down at the bottom of the pit...

 

There is a lot of information on this site and many of the members are keen to help; and they will do so, simply because they are a good crowd and love to contribute by helping out. Balance that information against sound engineering principles and proven, existing installations and you'll get the answers you need

 

Jim Deering

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I about choked I was laughing so hard at Number 3 and 4

 

Thanks for the good information in the rest of the post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hans there you go, anything moony or me can say will only be to add to what Jim has said.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jim   Thank you very much,i didnt expect such a great response , its much appreciated. I have been considering the idea to isolate the foundations .At the moment my neighbours are friendly but that could change.And work is only building up as time goes by.John Nicholson gave me a price on the information pack  and i think it is money well spend.  cheers hans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey guys could you give a brief explanation of how the T shaped anchor bolts work?

i know the massey #5 at forge bro's has T shaped bolts under it, but never got to see how they actually fit into the equation?!?!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey guys could you give a brief explanation of how the T shaped anchor bolts work?

i know the massey #5 at forge bro's has T shaped bolts under it, but never got to see how they actually fit into the equation?!?!

It is the best system I have seen or heard of for anchor bolts and I would probably use it for any large machinery I were pouring a foundation for and installing. 

 

Here is a description of how it works.   You make forms to create a bolt hole large enough that the T can fit down the hole. At the bottom of the hole is a steel plate with a rectangular hole in it large enough for the T to slip through it,  The Massey drawings call for a casting but I just had some 3/4" plate flame cut.  Below the plate is more forming to create a cavity under the plate.  So after pouring the concrete you have a hole down to a steel plate then a chamber under the plate.  The T bolts have a rectangular section forged on the end of the bolt with a section of the shank by the head square, like a carriage bolt.  The threaded end of the bolt has a much smaller internal thread tapped into the end of the bolt. 

 

I made mine by upsetting the end of a 1.5" round bar then flattening it  then further upsetting using  2 heavy bars welded to a piece of heavy plate creating a sort of bolster.  Then I squared things up and finally swaged the round section just above the square section. 

 

When installing the hammer the bolts are dropped down the holes through the steel plate and they drop into the cavity under the plates.  Now the threaded ends of your bolts are just below the top of the concrete, or what ever you  are mounting  hammer on ,so there is no danger of damaging the threads and you don't have to thread the needle dropping the hammer over the bolts.  Now you take a piece of threaded rod with a handle welded on and thread it into the threaded hole you made in the t bolt.  Turn the t bolt 90 degrees and lift then thread your nut on.  The short square shank section ensures the t bolt won't turn as you tighten your nut.  There is also some play in locating the hammer as the holes in the concrete are bigger than the bolt shank. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I never got around to taking a picture of the finished bolts but here is making them.  Here is a view of the forming for the bolt holes. All the bolt hole forming and obviously the cavity below the plate forming is still in place.  You will have to excuse the really ugly rebar job.  This is before I formed the front of the hole.  I wish I had mounted the hammer higher rather than setting the top of the hammer flush with the floor as the plans call for.  I actually have a shallow trench in front of the hammer, I filled in around the hammer with limestone screenings rather than pouring concrete and have a lower section in front of the hammer. 

post-8901-0-25208500-1380917601_thumb.jp

post-8901-0-03154500-1380917655_thumb.jp

post-8901-0-91714300-1380917732_thumb.jp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

perfect description Mr Newman! i particularly like the idea of the plate underneath, and the square shank is the part that had eluded me! i was wondering how you stopeed the bolt turning, and there you go! simplicity is always key ;)

and i had noticed the threaded holes in the top of the bolts, on the MASSEY i worked on, but never drew two and two together!

i had always known they were like a larger version of the pit (or manhole cover) lifters we used to make.

 

here is a drawing from a 1911-? engineering manual i found with timber and concrete foundations, along the lines of what i was thinking for my steam hammer..... foundations'' target='_blank'>foundations>foundations but the T bolts are not in these drawings, i would much rather the T bolts! i will fit them in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One major advantage of the 'T' bolt is that if a bolt breaks you have a good chance of being able to replace it.

 

You have to lift the hammer off the foundation, and struggle to get the broken portion of the bolt out of the riser tube (or if your lucky the bolt will break just above the 'T' and it will drop into the void under the anchor plate).

 

You can then just drop a new bolt down the tube.

 

Its a lot of faffing, but much less faffing than the other options :D

 

Hold down bolts don't break very often, but they do go occasionally.

 

The long bolt has a lot more 'stretch' in it than a short bolt (for example an epoxy'ed in stud) - my limited mechanical / metallurgical knowledge leads me to think that it will be much less prone to failure than a short bolt.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hello to all yes jim has it about right  

 i used timbers under my 7cwt massey but i not have nexty worries  there are a few insulator pads the jame walker stuff i have information on and it looks a good product 

  and to have 2 concrete foundation is another idea  the first is a think base slb  with the pad on top then anothe concrete block pour on top this block is the full main block  and then in the pit where the anvil is set u put mor pads under tyhe anvil then put the hammer frame on top all bolted down with the tee head bolts in the tube set up  and you should not have ground vibration travel theres a bit more to keep the side walls of the top slab block away from the sides of the hole but i not going in to full details 

 moony 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you guys think about the beams and steel plate method of mounting a power hammer? I've seen it done on 100 to 300 lb hammers. Do you think it could damage the hammer in any way?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One other thing I would advocate is that when you make the pockets on the end of the tubes make them long enough so that if you break the head off a bolt there is enough room for the broken head to fall down into the pocket and then still allow you to get the new bolt head into where it needs to go.

I have heavy conveyor belt under the standard of our 5cwt, never had a problem with it, also have conveyor under the anvil also not had a problem with it  Basically the same setup with our 2cwt alldays too, only it has about 100mm of timber under the hammer its self,  on the 2 I tried to set it up to a good height for working but failed miserably I managed to get the height at just the wrong position for my back.  A little lower would have been good or a little higher would have also been good.  I'm just sort of half stooped at the wrong angle.  Its something you probably need to be aware of.

 

I have seen power hammers set up on wooden pads under the anvil set deep into the ground, and 2 baulks of say 14" square hardwood 10 or 12 feet long buried in the floor either side for the hammer itself to bolt to.  Worked fairly well, only you don't want the timber to start to rot.  This is how the original steam hammer in our workshop was installed while the pit here was still working, (1910 era).  We actually had to finish digging out all the timber when we installed our hammers, the 2 upper balks were rotted but the pad under the anvil was still solid.

 

Phil

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day

 

Thanks for the positive comments on my initial posting

 

I have to agree on the T-bolts, especially leaving enough room to allow for broken heads to fall clear of the room needed to fit new bolts. Unless you think of this...

 

The manufacture of the T-bolts can be made a little more simple if the bolt shank is left round along its entire length and the head made rectangular. Then weld tabs either side of the rectangular - get that bit, rectangular... - hole in the bottom plate - which is cast into the inertia block. These tabs then hold the rectangular head of the T-bolt from turning as the retaining nut is torqued

 

You can place and remove the T-bolts as you see fit, so long as there is clearance in the rectangular hole in the bottom plate... That way if the head breaks off, some manipulation with a magnetic pickup tool should see the head come out of the inertia block... Just like the manhole cover tool works

 

You can just tack weld a piece of rod to the end of the T-bolt to pull it up once the hammer is in place. Just let a Ø4mm [5/32-in dia.] rod stick and then let it come out of the electrode holder. Otherwise, do yourself a favour and thread a screw into the tapped hole in the end of the T-bolt so it doesn't fill up with scale and other rubbish. makes removal a bit simpler as you won't need to clean the tapped hole out. These hold down bolts are substantial in size, but as others have noted, they can and do break. resilient mountings under the retaining nut will lessen the shock loadings and increase lifecycles, but, really, how hard are they to replace, if it is done right in the first place?

 

As an aside, I have seen hammers simply bolted to beefy - about 200mm square [8-inches] red gum [eucalyptus camaldulensis] beams - old bridge beams actually - and the machine merely placed into a pit, bounded by timber framing and filled with sand, in the forge floor. The beam's length to suit the hammer...

 

Ditto the advice on rotting timbers noted here though! Check and replace if rot is evident. The hammer is held upright by the timbers and if one breaks, the machine could topple over, especially if it is a top-heavy type. One of the best anti-rot treatments is pressure treated creosoting, but certain jurisdictions frown on its use. Search on-line for it by name and you will soon discover why... Nasty stuff, but like all nasty stuff, it does a great job! It is a case of, "Why is everything I like, immoral, illegal or fattening?"

 

Sand, being non-contiguous, is a poor transmitter of vibration, but there is a limit to its ability to reduce vibration, based on things like moisture content and grain size. It is though cheap, easy to handle and plentiful

 

The hammer would tilt forwards over time and when the tilt became excessive, the machine was lifted clear of the sand pit, the sand re-levelled, and the machine put back into the sand pit

 

This only works on one-piece hammers, unless you make a raft to hold the two-piece hammer's parts in the correct orientation and that would defeat the purpose, to my way of thinking

 

Many readers will attest to the versatility of this arrangement, as they have their anvils in drums, filled with sand, making easy height adjustment another benefit. Here it is suggested the same arrangement be considered for use, just executed on a power hammer scale, as opposed to an anvil scale

 

Hammer, when mounted to steel plate, must be properly bedded onto the plate, otherwise tightening of hold-down bolts will cause significant bending stresses to the hammer frame. For this reason, hammers whose manufacturers include this method of mounting in their repertoire of fixing options always machine the hammer bases flat and suggest any steel plate to be used as a base either be machined also, and that bedding material be used to prevent breakages of the hammer frame. Because of its density being nominally three times that of concrete, steel plate mountings can often be placed, on isolation pads, directly onto a floor, without using a pit. Most times, pits are just to get a big enough lump of concrete under the machine in reality. Commonly, a ratio of three times the assembled hammer mass is suggested for the inertia block, but that is only a general guide. Far less steel plate is needed to get the ratio

 

With old machines, the bases are rarely flat - severely rusted quiet often, distorted perhaps, from long-term mounting to less-than-ideal mountings etc., Cast iron can be flexed to a degree when green, but gets less flexible as it matures, which it does over time, a bit like concrete. So, if you were looking at a steel plate inertia block, make sure you bed the hammer base properly!

 

There are excellent sources of data on embedment lengths for chemically anchored fasteners and threaded rod is available in a multitude of grades and materials in many parts of the world, so "glued in" is still an option, and can cater for very long engagements, it is just that the dedicated system is the most durable and serviceable. The chemical anchoring is so tenacious that, if correctly designed, it will usually see the strongest concrete fail on a nom. 30° shear cone, or the bolt fail, and you can design for that to be the failure mode if you rally want, well before the chemical bond lets go of the concrete. That is probably a topic for discussion elsewhere...

 

I strongly recommend getting the dedicated Massey information from John N. as he and Co. are THE source for all things Massey

 

As for exactly how the Massey valving gives that 'best of both worlds, being steam and air' behavioural characteristics of the tup, I could tell you, but John N. would hunt me down and it would end badly

 

Bed time, or I turn into a pumpkin

 

Jim Deering

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks again Jim     As we speak John N is working tirelessly through the night to get the Massey info  onto the postmans bicycle and the "Missing postman'( see youtube)is delivering it himself to Oz  cheers Hans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all this info boys.

I am a new member thanks to Andrew and Trica from Farmweld.I have recently purchased a 2 cwt clear space massey in W A ( although an old one according to John at Massey ) and have never seen or used one before. I am very appreciative of all the info on this site and am a bit more educated on Massey hammers now. Moony has been  a huge source of info also to me on these machines. I have been trying to get info on isolating vibration from hammers and will now contact John again at massey and buy drawings and such for correct installation. I have been researching for years and keep hitting brick walls on this subject. I have had problems over the past 20 years with hammer vibration from adjoining properties in industrial sites with just  little hammers ranging from 50lb to 150lb let alone a 2 cwt Massey, although  from what I have seen from you guys these are baby hammers. I am building a new workshop and like Hans , am close to neighbours. Thanks to all this info I will do some research before I pour conc. I will place pics of restoration and installation later .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi All Getting closer to install my 3cwt clearspace ,cut through the concrete slab on Saturday.Also ordered and received installation pack from Massey ,thanks John N you can go and party tonight ,send the money off today .i like reading all the info. Also ,as i mentioned before ,i tracked down the blacksmith who worked on the hammer when it was still at the Bundaberg sugarmill, and he is comming for a visit when its running ,so i got to get my finger out... cheers Hans and thanks again to all the people for their great advice.

Here are the pictures, Hans

post-25658-0-83724700-1384843623_thumb.jpost-25658-0-51176700-1384843595_thumb.jpost-25658-0-70997500-1384843656_thumb.jpost-25658-0-06753400-1384843684_thumb.jpost-25658-0-40628800-1384843524_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My 3B Nazel is on 4 foot of concrete and rebar. The anvil base is on oak timber cross-stacked about 12" high and coated with tar and covered with plastic to prevent water from coming up the concrete. The hammer is on 1.5" of oak with the same plastic and tar. Both are not saturated with oil.

The concrete pour is isolated from the floor and dirt with 1" foam board insulation...which is to say it is not isolated at all. It was a thought which did not proof out.

 

When running full out for 45 blows in a row every heat for two days I can feel the vibration through the 6" shop floor and on occasion loose things fall from the anvil and tables....so I would say it is adequate for my light use, but if I were an eight hour a day forge shop then it would not be adequate.

As Forgemaster says..the height is important...especially when it is the exact wrong height. Mine is very close to being exactly wrong so I may lift it out and place a commercial vibration pad in place of one course of wood and raise the anvil and hammer up 4-5".

I need to redo some of the linkages and the guides so the down time may as well be very useful rather than just useful.

 

BUT 

 

I am installing a 1,000 weight Niles Bemment Pond steam hammer (converted to air) next year and will give that machine much more thought. it will be outside the current shop and in its own designed space....I am taking the above suggestions to heart for that machine as it needs the support and I need the sleep.

 

Ric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.