Rail web bick iron

[Michael Cochran]

I dug out the web i cut off my rail anvil when I mounted it upright after it was suggested I could make a bick from it. I put it in the fire today knowing what it was supposed to look like when I got it done but didn't get far when I ran into a stumbling block. I have one pair of tongs and they are great for holdin flat bar but not for tapered stock so I couldn't keep a good grip on the hot iron. I also had trouble when I went to break one square taper down to start rounding it. All that said, can someone please give me some pointers that could possibly make this a little easier. I have attached pictures showing where I got to, I did clean it is some with a sander to give me a better look at what I have. Please ignore the awful hammer marks, like I said it's not done yet.

[turbo7]

Good thing about tong jaws is they can be re-shaped to fit the metal your working on. Hammer marks? I can see texturing tool.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Vise Grips work wonders. I keep a pair handy for things like this. You can also weld on a temporary handle.

 

Edited April 19, 2015 by BIGGUNDOCTOR

[Frosty]

You need to make a pair or two of tongs. If you're not good at making tong then all the more important you make a few pair. A pair of side grip square jaw would allow you to forge everything but the shank, that would work best (I think) with square bit cross jaw. The first tongs hold the steel parallel with your reins but to one side. The second holds square bar perpendicular to the reins.

Not V bits, SQUARE bits. both will hold the steel securely but V bits hold it at a 45* angle to the stock and makes it harder (for me anyway) to keep the stock square without twisting or rhombussing it.

Holding a taper can be problematical but with side hold tongs it's trying to drive INTO your strength so it's easier to control. You can also alter the bits to fit a particular taper easily as they're not in line so keeping them aligned isn't a factor. (If that made sense, if not . . .  )

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Frosty

[Michael Cochran]

I hate to admit all those answers should've been pretty clear to me and I never should've had to sk such a stupid question. I was gettin a more than a little frustrated and we all know it's hard to think straight when we are. I went back out to the shop after posting and cooling off a little and got an email (on my phone) with the first reply, thanks turbo, and after the urge to slap myself subsided i altered my flat tongs so that they matched the taper on the bottom of the web. After doing that everything went so much smoother.

biggun, vise grips were my tongs of choice when I first started smithing and left me with more headaches and ruined tools than I care to admit.

frosty, I definitely need to make a few more tongs. I have tried, and failed miserably, a few times. I think I'm rushing myself too much when I'm making tongs. I will look up the tongs you suggested and will try them next time I decide to try tongs again.

Heres where I'm at now with my bick. Any suggestions on how to improve it would be greatly welcome. I plan to heat treat next weekend if all goes well. I know I need to bring the shank back to square from the top and do a little bit of grinding to smooth it all out before I do just unsure of anything else I might need to do.

Thanks for all your help so far.

[turbo7]

Question if I may, Frosty are do bick irons work better with a sholder to sit on or are they good to go just straight into the hardy? Thank you.

[ThomasPowers]

You want then to sit up enough that you can work around them---say at least 2" with more being ok.

As for advice:  I like mine to be more conical in the horn so I can use them on arrow sockets. Not recalling what you plan to do with it I can advise you very much; save for temper tough not brittle!

[Frosty]

Yes Turbo they do.

Sorry mate I couldn't resist, I don't know. Were I making one without knowing better I'd put a shoulder on it to be safe. However, Brian Brazeal tapers the shanks on his bottom tools and they're very solid, more solid than my factory made bottom tools and don't jam in the hardy hole.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Michael Cochran]

I was wondering myself if I needed to put some kind of shoulder on the shank since I'm gonna be using is in a piece of plate. I'm really unsure how I'd do that so I better get to researchin lol.

[Michael Cochran]

Thomas, im mostly doing it for more practice with hammer control. I'm also doing this since I tried forging a bottle opener and couldn't manage to forge the opening evenly or properly finish a fork I was working on. Not having a horn makes some things a little more difficult.

frosty, can you make a suggestion how to shoulder it? I'm thinking upsetting the shank some and then forge the lower portion back into a taper.

Edited April 20, 2015 by M Cochran

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The easy way is to just weld a plate to it at the height you want it to be.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Forge a square taper on the other end and a blunt square on the web to mount it in a stump or plate. Nothing left but to file and sand it then

[Frosty]

Does the shank fit in the hardy and if so how far? If it slips in already I'd probably use my arc welder and add one but if you don't have one I don't know. Upsetting that would be more a PITA but Upsetting tends to be anyway.

I see Charles just posted a good suggestion, I think I'd lean that way myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Michael Cochran]

Ok, I think I'm just gonna weld it to the plate. I have yet to figure out an easy way to upset steel, I always end up crooked and usually lose most of the upset by the time I straighten it back up. I've got plenty of clean up to do on it before I mount it. I'll share a picture this weekend if I get it done, unless the welds look that bad lol.

Charles, are you saying to square taper the end opposite where I tried to make a round taper?

[Eddie Mullins]

There is a BP here BP0008 - Hardie Socket. It allows you to use smaller shank on samller tools that set up above the hardie. I made one and really like it, it may work well for use in your plate.

http://www.iforgeiron.com/index2.html/blueprints/original-series/bp0008-hardie-socket/

[Charles R. Stevens]

Yes, a square bick is almost as useful as a round one. 

I would suggest a not welding to a plate, a plate with a square hole, and a blunt taper on the web end of your bick. This alows you to exchange the bick for another tool.  Mounting it on the anvil post would be a good place (if I remember you have a verticaly mounted small gauge rail anvil) this would give you a stake plate/hardy hole that you can make tools for. Is that web 1/2" 0r 3/4"? As anvilfire is down I cant refere you to his hardy hole making articals, but despite the effort involved making a square hole, even one that is taperd isnt all that hard. Drills, punches, drifts, and custom chisels will get it done. 

As to your issue with your hammer being bigger than your anvil face, i have a nice little asian cross pein that is 1" square and about 4" long not unlike a viking erra hammer. But as has been sugjested many times (and recently by Tp) used slege hammers are cheap, especialy handle less ones, 8# is comon, but 10-20# are out there. Many a smith in the tird world uses them. 

Certainly dont discard your rail chunk, it takes work to break down the stock but you can make tools from it, I'm using a heavy guage rail in this exampla, the "parts" are as fallows, the "head" or the part the train rides on, the "web" the vertical part that holds the head and flange apart, and the "flange"wich is the foot that sets on the sleepers (ties) the head is 3x1 1/2" by rail lengthe, the web is 3/4 x 5" and the flange tapers from 3/4 to 3/8" and 5" wide. 

So a 1 1/2" slice out of the rail yealds a 1 1/2x3" peice of the head, punch and drift and you have a hammer head, the remainder can be split to make 2 "T" stkes 3/4" wide  or furthe broke down you have chisels, sets, knife stock, the web can be bent making a bick. For those who wish to go a "viking" (yes it is a verb, not a nown) a 6" long section of rail can yeald all your kit but tongs and punches. First cut the flange off, slice a 2-1 1/2" peices off the head, a bit of forge work and a 3" square post anvil apears, fuller the web, upset it some (side ways) and forge a blunt spike, mount to a stump, not a square cut one! Use an axe to round the top some for a more athentic look. Now you have two peices of web that can be cut up to make the sliting punch and drift for your two hammer heads, and you still have material for two more tools, say one chisel and one punch (or one small axe eye drift) This leaves the web. One 3/4" slice, round taper one end, square taper the other, bend in the middle to form a nice small bick, this leaves over 5x5" of stock that can be made into other tools, say slit down the middle and cut up for handled tools such as a hot set, punches etc.

 

[Michael Cochran]

Thanks for that heads up, Eddie, I think I have some stuff at the house I can use to make one of those.

Charles, thanks for the ideas about what to do with that rail stock. I really can't give any measurements for the bottom part, I've only measure the total height and the size of the 'head'. If I remember when I get home I'll see if I can't slip out to the shop real quick and measure the rest of it. If I had to guess its closer to 1/2 inch but I'm unsure. Like I mentioned in my intro thread, I'm mostly using it as a bottom fuller right now since the head is so small. I am trying to find the closets rail yard for some mainline as well as keeping a watch on my local scrap yards for something with a little more surface area. 

[Frosty]

Nice summary Charles. That would be a short list of what rail is good for besides forging on. Call it seed stock all it needs is some fertile soil and a few feet of rail can turn into a farm worth of tools and product.

At Saturday's meeting Jim had two rail anvils set up and they were short sections of rail, 8" max I didn't measure them though so they might have been +/- up to an inch. Jim set rail anvils up to show some of the new guys what they can do on very basic equipment. In about 2hrs. four guys with scratch for experience forged simple V bit bolt tongs, a: punch, drift, flux spoon and bottle opener. Oh yeah, they had access to a vise for twisting and bending. Oh, two of the first meeting attendees found the club right here on IFI!  Three of the fellows who were first time attendees last meeting couldn't make it but are Valley boys so I'm sure we'll see more of them later.

We're shifting gears in the "Association of Alaskan Blacksmiths" or "Alaskan Association etc." as listed here on IFI in the regional organizations. The club seems to be undergoing a growth spurt so we're shifting our focus to finding or making basic equipment, tools and learning projects.  With that in mind we're planning: a tong workshop, {a hammer making tools, and hammer making workshop} and a propane burner and forge work shop.

We have guys with a little experience or specific product experience. We're looking at bringing guys into the craft from scratch or near scratch. We're going to be showing the guys how to make Rail anvils, horizontal and vertical. I'll also demo how I make a layered (for lack of a better term) rail anvil. The "layered" version weighs close to what a London pattern anvil of like size does but requires some serious welding expertise and equipment. Still, if a fellow has 8' of rail and knows someone with a good welder . . . Who me?

I or one of the gang will post pics and such about the process as we go, probably in the club's section but it'll be here.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

Edited April 20, 2015 by Frosty

[Michael Cochran]

I just got home and went out and measured the t shaped part of my rail. It's 4 1/4"w x 3"t and the base of the rail is about 3/4" tapering down to about 1/4" the web itself is about 1/2" thick.

Frosty, I'd like to hear more uses for rail if you have any off the top of your head. You guys have got me thinking about what all I can do with it and now I'm looking for more. 

i think I'm going to put my bick in a holder like Eddie suggested with the holder sitting in a plate mounted in front of my vertical rail. I'm going to try to cut out a notch from the web on that rail that will line up with the hole in the plate and provide additional support for my new collection of hardy tools. Well I guess it's not a collection since there's only one right now.

Edited April 20, 2015 by M Cochran

[ThomasPowers]

Weygers in "the Complete Modern Blacksmith" made speciality dies for powerhammers from small rail for forging out wood carving chisels.

[Michael Cochran]

That book keeps coming up, I think it's about time I try to get me a copy.

[ThomasPowers]

not hard to find or expensive, why not?

[Frosty]

That book keeps coming up, I think it's about time I try to get me a copy.

​You bet it's time you picked up a copy! Not only did Mr. Wygers make things like sheep shears from rail I'd be surprised if he didn't make pinking shears at some time. It's gotta be the best bootstrap shop book I've ever read. A person with that book and a bucket of basic tools could rule a post apocalyptic world.

Charles laid out a really good outline of things to do with rail. There's a raft of hammers, bottom tools and such in every foot of rail. Here's an idea. I'm assuming your current rail anvil is on end. So how about welding a bail on the flange just the right shape, size and distance to hold your bick iron. The shank would fit in the bail and the working bicks would rest on the flange of the anvil. This will point the working bick away from the anvil so if you weld the bail on across from the web the non-working bick will lay on the web and not be on the way.

Just think of all the handy bickish tools you might need say an anvil bridge. Bending forks will fit the same "hardy" hole like thing, they'll only be horizontal instead of the more expected "traditional" vertical. Looks like it's a natural for a 3/4" mandrel cone as well.

I have to say, that last question is like pointing me at a pile of steel and asking what I could make from it. Uh, what do you need? Just remember rail is tool steel so you MUST be aware of temperature or embrittlement an come home to roost and peck it's pound of flesh.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Carful, That came off Anvil fire and may be coppywrited. Jock gets persinikity if you dont ask first (cant say I blame him) befor reposting his images. 

I wouldnt bother with welding, if you make a stake plate with diferent sized holes just use the web, with either the head or flange sticking up. Google sheat metal stakes, silversmith stakes, jewlers stakes, stake anvils, stake tools, post anvils for a bunch of ideas. Hardy tools, anvil toos as well. Image serch cuts threw the "popular" clutter

[Michael Cochran]

I didn't even look where it came from just did a quick google image search for something like what I'm doing. I'm thinking about cutting out the web and sitting the plate on top of the web and flange. I've seen pictures of pexto plates and that's kinda the direction I was thinking would be easiest. I'm pretty sure that's what you are referring to but I'm going back to searchin just to be sure.

by the way I've spent the last couple hours reading up on rail stock projects, thanks for helping me realize there's far more use in them than I even had a clue.

Photo and post removed as requested