josef Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I know that "heavy" depends on who you are talking to. Here I am interested in 2" wide by 3/4" thick flat bar curled on the flat. How tight a curl can reasonably be made and how's the best method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 This is the easiest way You need to trap the bar so it has not choice but to bend..usually in a trough or clamped between plates. like this, but for one plane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If you break the edge you can role it almost in on it's self. But a fibinatchi curve looks best. All depends on heat, dies and hammer control. This is assuming we are both talking aboutthe same thing, "on the flat" to me is the "easy way" or bending it like a "L" braket, wile "on the edge" is the "hard way" like a horse shoe. Iv'e bent a few hundred feet of 1x 1/4" on edge, thousands of 3/4x 1/4 or 5/16" and a gew hundred feet of 1 1/2"x 1/2 and 1x3/8" making shoes. I like the looks of heavear stock to scroll, so for 1 1/2" ide scrolls i would look at 1/2 or 3/4" if you taper the ends it makes very nice meaty scroles. In 1/4", 1/2 and 3/4" have nice preportians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Greetings Josef, When I had my Eagle machine I found that tight flat rolls did not work well.. You are limited to the die size and the distance between the rolls... Done most hot on the platen table with spacers.. You can do the same with a simple jig welded to a fixed table. Reasonable to a 1in dia.. Flat is a whole different story.. Very tight bends I have upset the area with consideration for stretch and compression at the bend correcting on the anvil as required. Without upset and reform I would guess about 5 in on the flat... Fun work! Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 What are you trying to make, or what is your ultimate goal with the shape? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Think lambs toung turndowns on old hand rails. I believe they forged the rail to shape and did the turndown separately and later welded it to the rail for the correct length. A lot of the old churches in New York had these type railings. They do look good with the uprights set in lead in granite steps. Very classy. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Do you have a historic photo that you could post showing this detail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josef Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 Yes, I am talking about the "easy" way on the flat. It is for the ending on a handrail. I'm trying to limit the explosion of equipment in my shop so I want to keep this simple using coal forge, anvil, hammer, vise, and relatively simple tooling. I've made 1" curls on 2" by 1/2" using a fixture in my 6" post vise which is firmly bolted to the floor. Do you think a 2" diameter would be reasonable especially if I do a smooth taper the section down to say 3/8" from 3/4". I do have a 25lb Little Giant. Joe www.elegantironworks.com Knoxville, TN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 The easiest way to find out if it will work is to set up your bending post and fixture, and try it. I think if you do a nice taper, your 2" diameter should work. Be sure to relieve the edges of the stock all the way up if this is going to be a handrail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Greetings. Sure piece of cake.. A wood hammer is handy also.. Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 no problem; one way to get it started for a tight curl is to put two large adjustable wrenches on the hot end and crank them over to start the bend that you then refine with a heavy hammer probably need a helper to hold the bar stable while you work it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just went searching for Grant Sarver's post about how bending force increases exponentially as you near the end of a bar, when you get to a certain point you need to FORGE in the directional change rather than just bending, but crummy IFI search defeated me. Did find this oldie but goodie thread thou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Think lambs toung turndowns on old hand rails. I believe they forged the rail to shape and did the turndown separately and later welded it to the rail for the correct length. A lot of the old churches in New York had these type railings. They do look good with the uprights set in lead in granite steps. Very classy. Peter It can be done that way but it is far preferable to forge the lambs tongue right on the rail itself. Welding it on is a bit of a novice move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Should not be a a problem if you taper the end of the bar. The very end of the bar should be forged over the edge of the anvil to get a nice smooth start to the scroll. I had to do some scrolls for a Casino about a year or two ago. out of 2x3/4 cold rolled but they did not want the ends of the scrolls tapered or any tool marks. To get a nice bend right at the end of a bar with no taper the easiest way is to bend it then cut a the straight bit on the end of the bar off. Pins in a platen table were the easiest way to do most of the scroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I misunderstood and was thinking the other direction. Do what the others have suggested. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josef Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Many thanks, guys. Well, coffee break's over. Back in the fire. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Gents, In regard the lambs tounge turndown on handrails. Google the subject and there us a wide variety of hand rail endings. Note that some are designed to be welded on, I'll assume they are for the "novices" in the trade that aren't "experts" . I know a lot of shops that do fabricated style assemblies that produce first class work, they are far from novices in any way. Form follows function and blacksmith's have traditionally used the technology that was available to them in their time. My humble 2 cents on the purist argument. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Yes, if you can't make them, then you have to weld them on. Cut and paste so to speak. Lots of great fabricators are still novice level when it comes to ornamental work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Art, What if you make both he railing and the end termination separately and weld to accomodate length? Say you have 20 ft sections of rail already formed and fabricate supports and end configurations to accomodate the specific installation site. Not exactly cut and paste as you say. You seem to have disdain for the method as opposed to the result. In the interest of production, let me quote an old expression. One fellow rides the clutch and the other the brake....they both get around the bend. I tend to find art in the final product as opposed to the process. A product can be welded electrically as well as in a forge. Both welds are serviceable and both can be made to appear identical. Is one better than the other? The process may sooth the purist but art is in the eye of person viewing or using the product. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Art, What if you make both he railing and the end termination separately and weld to accomodate length? Say you have 20 ft sections of rail already formed and fabricate supports and end configurations to accomodate the specific installation site. Not exactly cut and paste as you say. You seem to have disdain for the method as opposed to the result. In the interest of production, let me quote an old expression. One fellow rides the clutch and the other the brake....they both get around the bend. I tend to find art in the final product as opposed to the process. A product can be welded electrically as well as in a forge. Both welds are serviceable and both can be made to appear identical. Is one better than the other? The process may sooth the purist but art is in the eye of person viewing or using the product. Peter Unless the rail section is too long, I always make the ends on the rail. When galvanizing or metalizing, the weld shows up. It is more work to weld it on then grind it. Wasted effort. This is a blacksmith forum, not a metal fabricators forum. Crap made in Mexico and welded on lessens the value to anyone who knows what they are looking at. Anyone can buy it, no skill involved. Regardless, my point is that making the ends separate is not "by the book" as it were. I do plenty of fabricated (crap) too, but even then, I make all my own parts. I wouldn't be much of an artist otherwise. If I need a volute or a lateral scroll which doesn't lend itself to forging or fabricating then I carve a pattern and cast it. Then, yes, I weld it on, but only in that situation. I don't even go along with the theory that it is better to buy rivets. However; to each his own. My standards are high, I have work because of cut and weld shops, not in spite of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Art, To thine own self be true , enjoy the ride. All the best, Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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