Smithing Machine Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Hello everyone. I am new to all of this. I am 15 years of age and, so far, have self taught myself blacksmithing. I have been at it for about 1 1/2 years. I built my first forge and I just fabricated a second one. I smith with a group of friends every Friday. I currently do not have a shop (doing it in my driveway), but I am working on getting one built. I attend McCann Technical School where I am majoring in Machine Technologies. When I reach my senior year (I am a freshman) I have to complete a senior project. My teacher have been talk about how the recent seniors have not made anything big for their projects. I am the top student in my class so they said to me, that they expect me to do something big. Well I want to build a Nazel 4N hammer. If anyone could help me out with this it would be greatly appreciated. I any one has full manufacturing drawings and specs of all parts that would be amazing. Any information would help out so much. Thank you for the help in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 I have a full set of manufacturing drawings for a Massey 3 cwt, which is a similar sized machine. I will sell you a full set of drawings for the cost of the copying, and a day of my time. (except the control valve, which I will manufacture for you free of charge if you get the rest of the hammer built to a reasonable standard- gotta keep a bit of the secret!). You will have to sign that you will not use the intellectual property for commercial gain. Cant say fairer than that:) drop me a PM when you get a bit further into the project:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithing Machine Posted June 19, 2014 Author Share Posted June 19, 2014 Thank you for the offer John, but I prefer how the Nazel is set up. Also, when I reach my senior year I will have 40-50ish official (I will try to get in the shop on weekends and the year before) days to make the entire thing. Not a lot of time. I rather not have to depend on another person for a part that I do not know I will get in time for my presentation. I hope you can see where I am coming from. If I don't get any other help, I will accept your offer. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Are you rebuilding an existing hammer? or full build - if so where are you going to have the frame castings done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 As a patternmaker and blacksmith this is an awfully ambitious project and I don't think you will get a better offer than John is giving you. Do you have access to a large boring mill? You are not going to bore the cylinders on a hammer of that size on a bridgeport or even a hammer a quarter of that size. As someone who has been building patterns for a living for 20 years, Off the top of my head the pattern and coreboxes for just the frame of that size hammer would be well over 300-400hrs in a well equipped pattern shop with journeymen building it. CNC equipment would speed things up a little but that is a whole other set of skills. There would also be $2000-3000 worth of lumber. There are also several other castings and the crankshaft which probably should be a forging. This is all before you start machining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Is the 4N the hammer that the bike building bloke of the telly used ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Wow John, Im dumbfounded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Dillon, If someone shows the gumption to spend a thousand bucks with me for my time, and the copying, then spends over a hundred thousand bucks making the rest of the hammer to a 'reasonable standard' in fifty days (when Massey used to take three to six months) I will not only send them a six grand control valve, (free of charge) I will send them a medal, and a job offer ;) :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Your the best! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mofokaye Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 If he manages this, I'm selling all my tools and returning to my previous job stacking shelves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 *rebuilding* such a hammer would be an appropriate 40 - 50 day task. Building one from the ground up is not---unless you are building a quite small working model. The cost of getting a 1 off casting will be very high indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.F. Thumann Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 I don't mean to shoot you down but.......not going to happen. Johns offer was exceptionally kind. How much money do you have to build this? My guess would be that Johns guess of 100k to build a new 4N would be short by about 250k if a big machine shop in the US undertook the project. Yes, the Bike Building Bloke, aka Jessie James, aka Franky Luckman, aka Popeofwelding, uses a 4N, and that is probably the genesis of all this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 Betcha can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 My Father always claimed that *any* engineering equation must have the "$" symbol in it somewhere; (and at one time he had thousands of degreed engineers working for him...) Or to put it another way: every engineering task must take into account the cost vs benefit of various choices. A 4n is a huge job, 40-50 days is a short amount of time. See if you can find a powerhammer that needs rebuilding that you can buy for scrap rate and get running beautifully in that amount of time and you will have something of *worth*! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted June 20, 2014 Share Posted June 20, 2014 One question; Are you wealthy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 This seems completely reasonable. I think it could be done in 50 days. I think you would need a year to plan and organize, A team of engineers and a budget of something like a million bucks give or take a few hundred thousand. If you could drag it out to a few years I bet you could get the price down to less than a quarter million. I would guess just to do the patterns, castings and machine work on the frame would cost $75-$100 grand doing them one off? I know for a Chambersberg 2CH back in the 80's when they still where in production they were $150,000.00 I would guess that machine with inflation today would be $250,000. That is a machine about half the size of the one you are setting out to build and I am sure you cannot build it as cheaply as a factory that was geared towards manufacturing hammers. Another thing to consider is what you are going to do with this 18,000 lb machine that requires a dedicated foundation and electrical supply once its done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithing Machine Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Thank you guys so much for waking me up. I now realize that building a 4N in my time frame would be impossible and costly. I have determined that rebuilding one to working condition, if I can find one, would be a lot more feasible. Thank you. Now to all those who asked if I have access to machinery for this kind of work. The answer is I do. Also, Jesse James was not a factor in my decision to do such a project. I did not even know he had one. I am not wealthy, to the person who asked. I get to use whatever money the school gives me and what I can make. Monstermetal I am going to use the hammer when finished. I am building a shop with space for this hammer and a few other machines. John I again thank you for your offer and I thank you for all your help. You provided me more info than you think. Now that I have returned to reality, can anyone help me find a hammer to rebuild? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 B’s become available from time to time, I just found one for a fellow in California here in Washington for $10,000. When I bought mine it had a problem and I picked it up for $5500. If something comes up I will be happy to put you in touch. Although if you are set on a N model you will likely have a harder time. The only one I have ever seen for sale is the one I sold to Jesse James. I know he bought a bigger hammer and sold it to another fellow for $15,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithing Machine Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 I will be happy with any Nazel, I guess. If you could keep a look out for me that would be great. One thing I want to say is the cheaper the better. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Since the budget is a concern and you have a penchant for larger machines, which makes sense if your long term plan is to run a shop as a business, may I suggest you consider a larger mechanical hammer? They are not as complex but still have significant machining needs when rebuilding and the cost is usually much less than that of a Nazel, Massey or C-burg. This option may get you started with lower investment and allow you then sell the rebuilt hammer at a profit help fund the machine you'd like to end up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithing Machine Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Well this project will be my senior project at my school. My senior year. After my senior year I will be going to college to double major in engineering. I won't have the time to market and sell the other hammer. I rather rebuild the one I want to use and get it over and done with. So when I come back to my work I can get right at it. Also, I am not sure if I am allowed to sell it, because the school will be paying for a majority of it. I do thank you Patrick for the idea and if all else fails, I will look in to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Personally, I like mechanical hammers. They have a cool, steampunk vibe to them. I built a 50# mechanical from scratch using some design cues from a Champion hammer. I use it often in my shop, though the press has taken some of the work from it. It's been in service since 2000. There are tons of homebuilt designs out there, check out the Anvilfire homebuilt hammer page. It would be a challenging build, and you would end up with a very serviceable machine in the end. I built mine, with a fair amount of salvaged and found bits, for about $600. Since you have some time, this is another area to look at. You should also look for a copy of Pounding Out the Profits, it is a history of the mechanical forging hammer and has tons of pics and line drawings of hammers. There were something like 200 different companies building forging hammers in the US between 1850 and the 1920's. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Those Bradley helve hammers still laying around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ric Furrer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I must say you are by far the most well written 15 year old I have yet come across. Most I correspond with can not string together more than a noun/verb nor avoid texting shorthand. As to the hammer selection for your rebuild/shop use. I believe the two are separate issues. One is a class project and the other is a yet to be determined application of force for work that is not defined. For the school: I suggest something closer to a 50 weight mechanical hammer with many moving parts and cute mechanisms (not a little giant or mayer) which can be located and rebuilt and be of interest to the mechanically inclined. For you: I suggest getting any hammer in the 100 pound or more range and set it in your shop for stress relief when you are at college and visit home. Odds are you will be smitten with other things when at college and if you really have a craving for using larger tools there are shops that you can visit or intern at and get your fill. Often the paths we walk early are not ones we complete later. Best to acquire tools that have a life after interest wains. Ric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithing Machine Posted June 21, 2014 Author Share Posted June 21, 2014 Geoff Thank you for the information about "Pounding Out the Profits". I am going to look into it and see what I can gather from it. I am also going to look around at homebuilt mechanical hammer designs too. Thanks for the help. Ric Thanks for the compliment. I just can't stand where society is going with teaching kids how to write professionally. It is a disgrace. Anyways: I think you are a little confused. From what I took in, you are suggesting for me to rebuild two hammers. Correct? One as my senior project and one for myself. I do get to keep my senior project and I am only allowed to make one thing. After my senior year I will no longer have regular access to my machine shop. So I won't be able to rebuild my "second" hammer, as you are implying. So I need one hammer for me to rebuild as a senior project and I get to keep it to use in my shop. Any new suggestions with this information? Also, I would like the hammer to be over 100 lb. Thanks for the help. Godspeed, Kipp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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