zach124816 Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Does anyone know of any books with information about gas forges i could possibly check out from the library? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Read all the threads on IFI concerning gas forges. There is about 3 books worth of info, plus after doing a little home work, there are plenty of folks that will answer questions. Good place to start, google jerry frost and t-burner. Once you do the home work, ol' lucky just might just answer a question or 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Also a good book is mentioned; probably have to ILL it from the library. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Ivan Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Read all the threads on IFI concerning gas forges. There is about 3 books worth of info, plus after doing a little home work, there are plenty of folks that will answer questions. Good place to start, google jerry frost and t-burner. Once you do the home work, ol' lucky just might just answer a question or 10 He may answer 10 questions per your 1 question if you catch his attention at the right time! -Crazy Ivan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 15, 2014 Share Posted May 15, 2014 Hey you guys are teasing me! Do some reading and ask your questions. It gets really old trying to explain things to people who don't know enough to understand plain answers. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 can you use just refractory cement? or do you have to use ceramic blanket? i am trying to build on a budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJergensen Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Ceramic blanket is likely your best bet. It's a much better insulator than a refractory cement. Make sure it's rated high enough in either case (2800°F or better). If you skimp on insulation, you'll pay forever in propane. I bought my first gas forge. I probably saved a bunch of money that way. Experts can build on a budget, but a beginner is likely to end up with something unworkable where nearly every penny was a complete waste. I will build my next gas forge, because working with and relining and tweaking that forge has given me enough experience to do that. I still plan to buy the burner(s), but that's mostly a time-vs-money thing. I'm currently enjoying forging more than I'm enjoying building forges ;-). FWIW, I use Inswool (2 layers of 1") for insulation with kast-o-lite to "armor" the interior (about 3/8"). In finding books, don't overlook kiln building books. Glass and pottery folk face very similar issues... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Castable and fire brick will work, but it takes a heck of a lot of fuel to heat them up. Not a bad choice if you fire ther forge up at 5 and shut down at 9 (am to pm) not so good if you fire uo from 5-9 pm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 "_Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns_, Michael Porter, is a do-it-yourselfers dream book, showing beginners how to make highly efficient gas burners inexpensively. These burners use simple gas accelerators as their central operating principle. All that is needed is a $2 MIG tip and some plumbing parts. This eliminates the need for a blower to supply combustion air, allowing the burners to be built in any size. " In case you didn't find this by now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 If you want a budget forge build a brick pile forge. There are a lot of advantages to a brick pile forge but after a while most folk sort of settle down in what they make so a non-morphable forge is plenty enough. Furnace cement isn't a very good choice in any event, at least in my experience. Most places where shipping doesn't double the cost of everything a sack of high alumna castable refractory is not only cheaper but works WAY better. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 21, 2014 Author Share Posted May 21, 2014 thanks. i think im going to try and find a place i could put a brick pile forge. right now i am just moving my rivit forge out when i need and set up shop at the end of the garage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Find a junked gas grill and replace the center section with a flat metal plate. You now have a place to build your brick pile that's movable and will carry the propane tank to boot. Or you can leave the center section in---removing the old burners of course and build your brick pile inside it and it can be stored outside with the lid down for protection Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 is there an adhehive i can use to hold the bricks together? would i furnace cement work? then blower, how big of a blower for how big of a forge and do i need a regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 As the bricks *NEED* to move as they heat and cool why would you want to bind them together? Easiest way to build a burner is to buy one. Not knowing if you have skills and equipment for welding or machining makes it quite hard to chose a method that would be easiest for YOU. Would you still like the "easiest way" if it was twice as expensive as buying a burner? Note that blown burners are much simpler to build than aspirated ones but require a powered blower to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 i have access to welders and tools and even an airtank/ regulator shop, (used to be airgas, now private owned) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 And skills? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 23, 2014 Author Share Posted May 23, 2014 can weld, cut, if i cant, i have someone who can, have a friend 25+ years repair shop and regulator shop experience so if i cant, pretty sure i have help that can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 23, 2014 Share Posted May 23, 2014 Sounds like you're good to go. As a rule of thumb you can bring a forge to welding heat with 1 ea. 3/4" ejector type burner for every 300-350 cu/in volume. The more insulated the fire chamber is the more economical it will be, both in warm up time and fuel consumption. Hard refractories or fire brick is durable but has a high specific heat so requires more time and fuel to bring it to temperature. It will hold it's heat better as well, so stock placed in the forge will not draw it down as fast or far making it more efficient heating the work. Insulating fire brick requires less time and fuel to come to temp but has less in reserve to transfer to the work. It's also more fragile both to physical contact, being gouged or scraped by stock in the forge, chemical, fluxes at welding temps tend to dissolve soft fire brick pretty rapidly and it doesn't like thermal cycling, tends to break up pretty soon. Hard fire brick is vulnerable to hot fluxes as well, silicates are dissolved by strong bases so this is something to keep in mind selecting forge liner materials. Being so much denser than soft fire brick it will take significantly longer to dissolve in contact with hot borax but it will. Refractories come in a number of types and forms. Most any industrial HVAC supply will carry or be able to order almost anything you want for a refractory. Ceramic suppliers can as well but they're in the business of "Art" so materials tend to be more expensive. "Kiln shelf" is a high temp refractory and makes an excellent fire contact liner. Best it's easy to repair and replace. Hard castable refractories can be formed however you're good enough to form it. Look for a "high alumina" refractory, it's much more resistant to hot caustics like borax fluxes. The other main insulating refractory liner is ceramic blanket/wool like Kaowool. As far as I've seen all are high silicate refractory ceramics so hot borax fluxes will dissolve it like hot water through cotton candy. Seriously, you can watch it dissolve before your steel gets too cold to weld. It domes in different grades and temperature ratings as well as thicknesses. Kaowool and equivalent products can be bought as hard insulating board. It's excellent insulation, easy to apply and repair but is almost as vulnerable as the wool blanket. I suggest using 1" thickness as it's easier to form with fewer wrinkles and it's easier to repair. Kaowool is what's easily available to me at EJ Bartells in Anchorage. They routinely carry a number of thicknesses. My preference is 1" 8lb. 2,600f. but get the highest temp rated they have at the time I'm in. Ceramic wool can be a PITA to get to stay on a flat surface, especially the lid. You can hold it in place with screws driven in from the shell or other similar techniques. I've had very good luck with my last flat lid rebuild by pleating it and skewering it. 1" wool, folded in pleats to the finish thickness is 2" and I skewered it through the pleats with SS tig rod. I don't know if the skewers are necessary but it's holding up well and it's more than 5 years old now. A good way to preserve flux vulnerable liners is with a kiln wash. That is a good search term. It's purpose in furnaces is making them resistant to high temperature chemical erosion, prevents pottery from firing to the shelves and increases the IR albedo, infra red heat reflectance. ITC-100 has been a favorite forge wash for years now but it's getting pretty darned expensive. It is or was kaolin clay as the binder/matrix with zirconium sand as the IR reflector. Mixing our own forge washes is being done by a number of us with decent results. A good way to help design what you need in a forge is to build a brick pile forge and experiment. some smart soul revived an excellent how to thread for brick pile forges. There isn't much of anything I can add to that post, it's really worth the read. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zach124816 Posted May 30, 2014 Author Share Posted May 30, 2014 Wow thanks, you just answered all my questions. thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacob Nothstine Posted May 30, 2014 Share Posted May 30, 2014 Here is a web page with a lot of good information on gas forges. http://zoellerforge.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukejoint Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 For some reason can't get in touch with anyone at zoeller forge are they closed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Between his business and his health, he's not the most prompt guy in the world for returning e-mail, but he's a great resource and a good supplier. Be persistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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