quint Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Hey guys I picked this anvil (and a few hammers) from a nice older gentleman today. So the anvil he has had for the last 30 years or so doing his saw work and he had gotten it from the shop he worked at from back then. Anyhow it has a crack in it that I used the red line to try and follow. It goes from about mid way down about 2" and across. That side of the anvil doesnt really rebound much more then like 20% but the other half upwards of 90%. Couple of things, Does anyone know who made this, it has no markings I can find at all. Two handling holes one each end. Is there anyway to fix the side that has the crack? I would like to use it and assume if I stick to one side it will work fine but am afraid of knocking off the top portion on the side with the crack. Was thinking if I did or there is no way to fix it eventually maybe have it machined with notches to add various tooling kind of like a Sheffield style anvil, its just a very nice anvil and would rather keep it historically the way it is. That being said I prefer to have usable equipment, dont have room or what not for collections Wanted to add she is pretty hefty, 7"x12" face and stands 13.5" tall. (assuming thats running 350lb+ So was thinking of a way to repair this guy. The top plate is still intact. The crack is in the cast iron portion of the body. I was wondering if cutting out the basically triangle portion of the cast iron, then basically welding the wedge shape portion would work. I am assuming it could be done but I have been wrong many a times before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 it would be possible maybe. if you ground a slot in it following the crack as deep as it goes which could be 6 inches then fill the slot with weld, if the body is cast iron it will cost a fortune in rods to do this and then afterwards you will have to heat treat the anvil again. you could just use the rest of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Been reading alot and am curious. I wont need the hard facing rod and if I go in a couple passes at a time then let it cool or maybe have the face in that area cooled so it doesnt get too hot then it could possibly avoid the reheat treat dilemma. Would take a while thats for sure. Guess something to look into some more and go from there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 How do you know the body is cast iron? Fisher and Vulcan were the only two companies using cast iron bodies on their anvils, so it could be wrought iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foundryman Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I'm no welder but as far as I'm aware you need to pre-heat the anvil (at least the area to be welded) to about 400 degrees before welding a big lump of iron like that or the weld quality will be compromised. I'm sure someone with far more experience than myself can confirm this. It's a nice looking anvil, shame about the crack though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Quint: What VaughnT said might be the key: FISHER did not put square handling holes in their Sawmaker's anvils. You anvil might be from a manufacturer that used wrought iron and a forged on steel plate. The shape, however, does look like a FISHER, but I have seen other sawmaker's anvils that look similar but were not FISHER. I would do a spark test with a portable grinder on the base and see what you have. You might also want to repost the picture with the crack, without the red line, so we can better see what it looks like. One other point: All FISHER sawmakers of the size had their name cast in. This one is unmarked. So probably not a Fisher. I do not know if Vulcan ever made a sawmakers anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatfudd Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 You really do need to figure out if its cast or wrought iron. There is machinable cast iron rod available which could be applied in small welds to keep the temps down (after you hog out the crack) If you do it real slow and keep the top cold, I can't see why you couldn't come up with an adequate fix Makes you wonder why the cracked formed in the first place if the top is in good condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Are you sure it really is a crack? Does it ring different on that side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Are you sure it really is a crack? Does it ring different on that side? I think he hit the nail on the head, ring. If it is pretty much a dead thud across the face then it's cast. Ringing would indicate a steel or wrought body, and those handling holes indicate that is what you have. The latter will be easier to fix, you just need to figure out how deep that crack is. A shallow crack wouldn't be anything to worry about. If the ring is affected, then it's time to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the iron dwarf Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 tap the face with a small hammer and mark the different areas. the 20% to 90% rebound is an indication of how far the trouble goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks guys, good info on the makes. I looked again and couldnt find anything at all and as you say NJGUY it sounds like its not a Fisher then. I had just assumed t was because the shape had scene similar but the fine details are where its at. Ill get some more pics of the crack area. It goes all the way threw with the exception of the top plate. You can tell by the rebound and feel of the anvil when tapping. Thanks for the help Ill be posting back up after I go get my buddies vehicle out of the ditch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 So was thinking of a way to repair this guy. The top plate is still intact. The crack is in the cast iron portion of the body. I was wondering if cutting out the basically triangle portion of the cast iron, then basically welding the wedge shape portion would work. I am assuming it could be done but I have been wrong many a times before. Hi. This is one of the few anvils on here which can be economically repaired without compromising the utility of the anvil (it is already junk). The trick is going to be going at just the right speed to keep the top plate from reaching tempering temperature. This could be aided with a copper or aluminum heat sink. I would aim to keep it under 350 degrees, maybe a bit conservative, but we have no idea what the steel top is so there is no way to know the temper temperature. You have to grind out the entire crack, ending in a radius shape of virgin metal. The groove should progress at about a 60 degree angle, but since you don't want to get too close to the top plate, you may end up with vertical sides to the groove at some point. This is fine as long as the sides are far enough apart to allow access for welding rods. 99% nickel is pretty expensive these days, but if you can afford 5 pounds get it. Otherwise buy 5 pounds of 1/8" 309 stainless steel. The anvil is almost definitely cast iron, but if it spark tests as wrought iron skip this part and just use 70 series stick or mig wire. Assuming it is Cast iron, you will then butter the sides of the groove. This means build up one layer of nickel or stainless over the entire surface of the ground out crack, without trying to fill the crack. Once you have the sides buttered you can fill the entire crack with 7018 or 70 series Mig wire or flux core. Because of the shape of the casting, you don't not need to preheat. This is not your typical cast iron or anvil repair, and is very doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Thanks Arftist. That sounds like a good plan. Gonna be some work but if I succeed then I will have a nice anvil that is fully functional. As it sits right now for bladesmithing work I could probably get away with using half of it but I am worried about snapping the steel top and thus maybe causing even more damage say like propagating the crack farther. Anyways I think Ill go with your plan and with the way the crack is once I cut it out (grind it out) it should be a nice V into the anvil which should be a good starting point. Here are a couple pics. The end shot you can clearly see it. The side shot is a little harder but its the same on both sides (only included one side shot) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humphreymachine Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Great looking anvil. I hope you are able to repair it. In the photos at the top it does appear like a cast example particularly with the protruding metal around the handling hole which would have been cored and maybe part of a mold line above it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I have never seen a saw anvil with that kind of crack before. I wonder if it was caused in the manufacturing phase or just developed over time, or abuse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Ya know its odd because the face is near perfect as you would expect for one of these anvils that has only scene saw work. Originally thinking it was a fisher but now that you brought up vulcan I am wondering, didnt they have a phase where there castings were not all that great and causing flaws that would show up. I think I remember reading about that. I was thinking abuse as well originally but would have thought also that the top plate would have been cracked as well but it is solid. Luckily for me. In anycase I didnt pay much of anything for it so if I can get it working atleast close to its original glory Ill be happy. Plus be a fun learning experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 I've never seen a Vulcan sawyer's anvil before, but that doesn't mean they didn't make them. However, you're saying that the anvil "rings" in one area and not over the cracked portion. Cast iron anvils do NOT ring. Therefore, it must be made out of wrought iron. Considering that it's a wrought iron body and there's no evidence of abuse, I would surmise that the crack is actually a welding seam that's separated. If you do decide to gouge it out and weld it back together, you can preserve the hardness of the top plate by laying a large chunk of steel on it. I've used tractor weights as heat sinks a number of times and never had a problem. It can help to lay a sheet of copper between the two if there's serious pitting. Copper is great at transferring heat! Another option is to flip it over so the face plate is now in contact with either the concrete floor of the shop (super heat sink) or your workbench. The face can't warm up until whatever it's touching has warmed up, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Yeah sorry I guess I shouldnt say ring, it doesnt make much of any noise really. I am pretty sure its cast steel. With it just sitting on a wood block without tie downs or magnets or chains it sounds a tad quieter then my soderfors on the metal stand I built recently which is now bolted to each other. And no idea of the make. I was just thinking idea wise how it could have came to be like that. Thanks for all the tips and tricks everyone. It will come in useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Cast iron anvils do NOT ring. Therefore, it must be made out of wrought iron. Wrong. Cast steel anvils often ring like a bell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I'm pretty sure there's a face plate welded to the top. You can see a clear change in the surface of the metals in the latter pics, so I'm ruling out cast steel. If it was cast out of tool steel as one solid lump, you might get a change in the surface textures, maybe, but the anvil would also be clearly marked by the maker. Cast steel technology is a rather recent invention, well into the time when companies were stamping their stuff, and a sawyer's anvil isn't subject to the same kinds of abuse and erosion that a london-pattern anvil is. I'd never believe that a maker's mark was destroyed on that anvil, but the face is in such pristine condition. The two things just don't go together. If rebound is dropping off precipitously over the area where the crack is, this would seem to me that the weld seam between two chunks of wrought iron as failed. Probably a flaw from the factory that was exasperated by decades of expansion and contraction cycles during its work life. You're right, Judson. I should have been more clear with that, but I was never under the impression that cast steel was even an option with this particular anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The anvil appears cast to me. How about turning it over and looking at the underside. It might make it more clear as to the material of the anvil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Im really sorry guys. I have a bad tendency to throw cast iron and cast steel in the same meaning but when it comes to anvils it is a very large difference. I meant to say cast iron. Sorry about the confusion on the two. I need to proof read my statements before I post them. So that being said I do believe it is "cast iron" not cast steel. I took my angle grinder and cut a section above the crack down into it, this piece chipped right out. Proves I am pretty sure the crack goes all the way thru the body as I suspected. The broken portion does look like cast iron. Large lumpy grain type structure that breaks off unlike wrought iron and not similar to cast steel which usually in my experience is more uniform. Ive got it tilted up on my band saw so later this evening Ill take a picture of the bottom of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Wanted to add. Vaugn your right the body itself is in very good shape as is the top. If there were any castings or stampings on it they would be there. I took a wire wheel to it and the rough casting of the body is still evident. The only portions cleaned up are around the top plate and the angle cut offs on the corners. I have a theory about the break. On the top plate at the edges there are two divets or rough spots that have been filed smooth and the back one third of the top plate dips about 1/16 to 1/8" as compared to the rest that is perfectly flat. I am thinking something very large and heavy was partially supported by the anvil at one time causing a compression of that portion of the anvil. The top plate slightly bent downwards and the resulting force on the cast steel caused a kind of pressure crack. Atleast thats my best guess. Ill take a couple of pics tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
njanvilman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 It would take a huge amount of weight to compress iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Very unlikely compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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