steveguilmette Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Hi all. This is my first post, I'm pretty new to blacksmithing, I've been at it about six months. I need to join this scroll to this backplate (mockup shown). I would like to do this without a visible weld. Typically in other work I see these riveted but I am unable to get a long enough rivet into the joint. I suppose I could open it up, slip the rivet in, and then reform the scroll, is that typical? I also thought of punching a hole in the backplate and rosette welding the scroll from behind. The scroll is 3/8 round and the backplate is 3/16 thick. Any other suggestions/examples? Thanks a lot, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Steve, The quick way....drill out the back plate and plug weld from the back side. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Drill a blind hole in the round bar, tap a thread and use a bevel screw from the back of the flat bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Drill a blind hole in the round bar, tap a thread and use a bevel screw from the back of the flat bar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 As Petere76 said, drill the back plate and plug weld. it will hold well, and not be seen after you clean up the back plate. I have done it before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 U shaped decorative collar that rivets on either side of the scroll? I don't have ready access to welding hear so I tend to lean towards non welded solutions :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Drill through both pieces and countersink both sides. Rivet them together and file the slight rivet heads to conform. Burnish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 Hi all. This is my first post, I'm pretty new to blacksmithing, I've been at it about six months. I need to join this scroll to this backplate (mockup shown). I would like to do this without a visible weld. Typically in other work I see these riveted but I am unable to get a long enough rivet into the joint. I suppose I could open it up, slip the rivet in, and then reform the scroll, is that typical? I also thought of punching a hole in the backplate and rosette welding the scroll from behind. The scroll is 3/8 round and the backplate is 3/16 thick. Any other suggestions/examples? Thanks a lot, Steve For future reference, Round bar onto a flat plate is not a good choice for securely mounting a scroll, you really need a flat contact area. If you had flattened and punched the area it would give a better mounting for rivetting In the situation shown my choice would be to file a flat on the contact area, drill through and countersink the backplate and drill and tap through the scroll, then cut off screw when in situ and file off to blend into bar, or alternatively leave screw longer and fit a ball nut There are two main functions for a scroll, to add strength and to look aesthetically pleasing as you move past the item. This gives movement to the piece as it is comparable to italic writing, depending on where you view it from, even square bar has this minimal effect as you move around the object, round is round, and the same from wherever you view it as you pass. Have a look her, you may have to scroll down a bit to find what you need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveguilmette Posted January 29, 2014 Author Share Posted January 29, 2014 Thanks for all the suggestions. I really like the idea of strapping it down (chinobi), I think the look of that will fit really well with the piece, but with that in mind, to keep it from being able to spin I think I'll fillet weld it at the contact and then rivet on the strap to cover the weld, similar to collaring over an arc welded joint between two elements. John, the thread you posted above has been a huge help for me on various projects thus far. I'm actually going to attempt the hot cut decoration technique used on the top for the backplate here as well. Thanks everyone for the kind responses. I'm looking forward to learning as much as possible from this great community. Pictures of my progress to follow. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted January 29, 2014 Share Posted January 29, 2014 happy to help :) the collar is indeed only a restraint and will not resist rotation in any way, if the piece only has two contact points you will need to go with the weld, or maybe drill a blind hole in both sides and install a close fitting shear pin prior to attaching the collar to provide restraint. either way you have the right idea, now post a picture of the whole ensemble so we can see what you are up to! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveguilmette Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I started to make the straps tonight, I made quite a few extra to practice riveting. Here's some pictures of the jig I made and the process. I could do about two per heat. Basically after getting it started by driving the 3/8 rod into the hot stock, I took a piece of flat bar scrap and drove it all down flush. The material for the straps is 3/4 x 1/8. The trough in the jig is 5/8 wide + two pieces of sandpaper I used to space it out for some clearance. I also welded 3/8 square stock on the bottom, the width of my anvil, so it would saddle on the anvil and not walk around. If I had stock to make a hardie shank, that would've worked better. Once I make the backplates and get everything welded up I'll give the straps a final tweak to fit exactly in place and rivet them down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Mullins Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Nothing to contribute, just an interested observer. Lots of good info shared here I plan to make use of. IFI just keeps on giving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Excellent work, Steve. A lot of the time you see a riveted scroll like you were initially thinking, and they were opened up so the rivet could be worked. A turning wrench would have been used to re-close the scroll after setting the rivet. You collar job is fantastic. Keep that jig handy and you'll be a step of the game the next time you need to do the same thing. The only difference I'd make would be to weld the round stock you pounded on to a piece of wide flat stock so it bends the collar in one heat. Does that make sense? Just do the same to the top piece as you did to the bottom piece, like a tool used in a power hammer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 general question regarding the riveted approach, why open up the scroll or otherwise modify it to make enough space for a hammer swing in order to work it from the scroll side? why not start with a pre-headed rivet, put it through the hole from the scroll side (provided of course there is enough clearance to get the shank through, maybe tweak the scroll a tad to make that happen) and hammer form the opposite rivet head on the back of the mounting plate while bracing the piece with the corner of the heel, or tip of the horn, or a bickern with a divot for the rivet head to sit in? seems like that would be simpler than opening and closing an already finished scroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Here is one way of rivetting on the scroll without damaging or deforming the rivet head as you would do if you used the horn as a backing. '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Try post 6, Have fun, tool made from a bit of scrap handrail section can be held in vise, or used across vise jaws, the latter reducing 'bounce ' when rivetting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted February 4, 2014 Share Posted February 4, 2014 Thanks John, that's what I figured would be the best way to go about it. gotta sit down and really digest the entirety of that thread after work, looks like some really great info there :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VaughnT Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Sometimes, Chinobi, you need to open the scroll not to hammer on the rivet, but simply to install the rivet so it can be hammered from the other end. In John's example, the rivet is headed, then inserted into the hole and secured on the back face of the bracket. His backer bar prevents distortion of the visible portion. In the OP, the scroll was shaped such that you might not be able to get an inch-long rivet into place without opening the curl a bit. It would certainly be a tight fit for a backing tool of some kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Thanks Vaughn, I figured that could be an issue with long rivet shanks. SteveG, you ARE going to post pics of the whole finished product, right? :-D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveguilmette Posted February 13, 2014 Author Share Posted February 13, 2014 Hi All, Sorry for so long to post these, I rarely get onto a desktop computer and I can't figure out how to link the images from my mobile phone. Anyway, I had to make a pretty long/weird rivet set to get in past the wide scroll end and get on the rivet. It worked, but I didn't leave myself much room to decorate the strap ends, and I decided they would take away from the overall look of the pieces. I do have a picture of my finished mock-up with the strap however. I decided to just go with drilling and countersinking the backplate and then plug welding. It worked extremely well. I've also attached a picture of the unpainted finished bracket and then the two of them installed. They are holding IKEA lanterns until I can make some sconces for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinobi Posted February 13, 2014 Share Posted February 13, 2014 nice work :) too funny to have all that labor in the hanger and then the little mass produced cheapie lamp on it though! look forward to seeing the sconce design :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Anyway, I had to make a pretty long/weird rivet set to get in past the wide scroll end and get on the rivet. worked, but I didn't leave myself much room to decorate the strap ends, and I decided they would take away from the overall look of the pieces. That would be a snap rather than a set, a set is similar to a monkee tool, and used to set the joint together, a snap supports and forms the finished dome, ie snaps it tight. Gets confusing 'cos a riveting set, comprises a snap and a set (combined as one tool) and a snap. Bracket looks good though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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