Swords9023 Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 I would like to build a new forge for making longer pieces similar to the one in this video: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 You may want to look around for other neo-tribal metalsmithing videos and more about the tim lively washtub forge BTW if you are doing it right the zinc shouldn't cause any problems at all. Ash is a pretty good insulator. You could use a refractory cement or fireclay or a mix of various parts of each. Why do you not want to use ash? Adobe was also used a lot in such forges Just remember in swordsmithing you do NOT want to heat more steel than you can hammer before it cools down as that promotes grain growth, decarburization and scale losses. And if you run across the name Bogiron associated with neo-tribal smithing stuff; that was/is *me* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords9023 Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 You may want to look around for other neo-tribal metalsmithing videos and more about the tim lively washtub forge BTW if you are doing it right the zinc shouldn't cause any problems at all. Ash is a pretty good insulator. You could use a refractory cement or fireclay or a mix of various parts of each. Why do you not want to use ash? Adobe was also used a lot in such forges Just remember in swordsmithing you do NOT want to heat more steel than you can hammer before it cools down as that promotes grain growth, decarburization and scale losses. And if you run across the name Bogiron associated with neo-tribal smithing stuff; that was/is *me* I'm not against wood ash at all. I'm worried its not readily available for purchase. I don't want to make my own. In truth, I need a longer forge for the hardening process more than anything else. My current forge is too small to heat an entire blade and keep it critical long enough to quench. Or that is my worry. I will use my current forge to smith it out little by little. Can you suggest a good build? I'm looking to build a coal/charcoal forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 before I built the 33 inch long gaser, for long blades I used a 1 inch pipe with 1/4 inch air holes laid on the ground. I attached to a dryer pipe to the hand crank, and 2 bags hard wood charcoal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 You know *nobody* with a wood stove or wood burning fireplace; no high schools who have a bonfire? You want to make a sword rather than buy one; why not make ash? I usually have to dump out 6-8 gallons of wood ashes a week during cold weather. I sift mine too but for the chunks of charcoal in it. Takes about a year to build up enough charcoal for a bloomery run (And yes having a longer forge for heat treating is a good investment!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Special Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 "You know *nobody* with a wood stove or wood burning fireplace;" Somebody mention me? My wife just made me toss about 10 gallons just from the fireplace. I was saving to make potash/lye, now ya gave me another reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords9023 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 I'm sure I could find a few people that have wood burning stoves/fireplaces. I guess I was just being lazy and wanted to go buy something I could use right away without having to do all the gathering and sifting. It will make a better product in the end though. As far as designs go, I like the forge made from the hole in the ground but my wife was, well...less that happy about me digging up our yard. Are there any other designs for a simple long forge? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Maybe you could get a 16-55 gallon steel drum for free or cheap from an oil change place. Cut it half lengthwise, fill partially w/ sand or firebrick and run the pipe above that. I was thinking about doing something similar for larger knives as I'm currently limited to a 5" blade. Check out this link, http://www.stormthecastle.com/blacksmithing/how-to-make-a-sword-forge.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Wow; to me getting it local is a LOT faster than ordering it or driving into town/city to find and buy it; easier too as I have to factor in *working* for the money for gas and buying stuff and the time it takes. Now if you live in a city, 1 you should be going with propane or natural gas and 2 it's probably easier to buy certain things. I got into smithing because I was blown away by the pattern welded blades back in the 1970's and couldn't afford to buy one; so I thought I'd learn to make them. As far as time and money goes I could have ordered the fanciest blade by the best maker and paid it off mowing lawns faster than learning it on my own---but it's sure been a hoot on the learning curve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Maybe you could get a 16-55 gallon steel drum for free or cheap from an oil change place. Cut it half lengthwise, fill partially w/ sand or firebrick and run the pipe above that. I was thinking about doing something similar for larger knives as I'm currently limited to a 5" blade. Check out this link, http://www.stormthecastle.com/blacksmithing/how-to-make-a-sword-forge.htm I do up to about 18 inch blades before I get out the large forge. Why do you think you are limited to 5 inch blades? The blade does not have to just sit there. I Place it in the forge. When the thickest part gets to a bright red, I move it over about 5 inches and heat the next section, after I reach the end, the first part is still over 900F. Now its time to slowly move the blade back and forth, soon I have the 18 inch blade at an even heat of about 1550F and I can quench. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I use an 11" brake drum forge with homemade charcoal. When I've heat treated larger knives I'm moving the blade as suggested, starting at the base and moving towards the point, testing that the entire cutting edge is demagnetized before quenching. I did do a spear point that the blade was 7" and it was difficult to keep the whole blade at critical temp. It took a couple of tries before I was able to consistently skate a file the entire length of the cutting edge. I have firebricks on both sides to minimize fuel and to try to concentrate the heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords9023 Posted January 14, 2014 Author Share Posted January 14, 2014 There is nothing like making your own weapons. I've bought them for years but I finally decided to get into making them and other stuff. I love it to death. I'm going to keep trying to convince my wife that the yard would survive the small forge hole I would have to make. If that doesn't work though, the Barrell forge seems to be my best bet with some sand/firebricks. I need to learn how to weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Not at all, you can build a sand table, and move the yard up to waist high. Be it a 1/2 a drum or a wooden box. No need to weld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quint Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Could always build a nice brick forge in the backyard, just tell her its a nice firepit :lol: Just curious is there something against propane or do you just want to keep it old school per say? Ive found on craigslist large metal pipe (16" plus in diameter) that would be great cut in half for a longer narrow forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Wow, I was going to post something mean and unproductive about throwing ashes away or digging up the yard, but my wife said if I did that, I would have to sleep in the back yard, under a tarp. :wacko: The county condemned and made me tear down my first shop...... Not to brag (but I guess that's what I'm doing) but my wife is pretty tolerant of my affliction: So, I have long puzzled over how to make a long heat bed that is quick and dirty and consumes as little charcoal as possible. Mr. Sells, your lawn forge is an elegant solution. Swords9023,Tell the Wife that you will carefully set aside the lawn divot, and when you are done no-one will ever know it happened, and the lawn is sure to benefit in the long run. The other thing Steve Sells said about moving back and forth through the heat zone is great advice. Dan C, I keep wanting to do a brake drum forge, but I would absolutely have to have a pan on it to give a larger "soak area". And nothing beats a tuyere that can be throttled for length (in it's simplest iteration, reads: "poking the coke"?). Thomas Powers, I'll have something to say about ashes when I've a learned bit more..... If I were to solve this problem for myself right now, I would get Diameter 4" or 6" black-wall stove pipe. Sold in 24" lengths, which comes with the seam not joined. Spread it open to taste, placing one section inside the other with 1" of ash dough in between the two pieces. the inner pipe will eventually get ate up, not that I would care for what it costs. Sealing the ends is only a matter of cold forming sheet metal caps and a few sheet metal screws. But then, I can dig all the holes I want..... If you work ash refractories, or such as contain Lime, etc., Consider wearing gloves, and protect your skin and lungs, One may be burned. I myself have to be reminded of these things over and over again. Mr. Stevens, How much sand does that take? I don't know much about wood-frame fire boxes.... Robert Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan C Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I do move the blade back'n forth btw, guess I need more practice keeping the blade heated evenly and building the fire so it's even vs. having hot spots, or doing the tuyere/grate different from the current design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Find an old gas BBQ grill, junk the burners and fill with dirt, ashes, clay, etc & so on. Build ground forge at convient level, with lid to keep rain out and hide your secret life from the neighbors.... I'd get some scrap metal or pipes to put inside along the sides to cut down on weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anachronist58 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Whatcha doin' over there, neighbor? Just bar-b-quein, neighbor, just bar-b-quein :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 "I could tell you but then I'd have to brand you!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords9023 Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 All sound advice. My current forge is made from a portable picnic grill. Works great with a two speed hair dryer. I do like to keep it "old school" with the solid fuel. A 50 lb bag of Bituminous coal is $8 and lasts me about a month (in the dry season). I like the ability to have extra control over the fire and the storage is safer. I'm giving some thought to the scrap grill idea. remove burners and add sand/firebricks to make the valley for the pipe. Keep the lid for a rain cover + alraedy at waist level height. minus wife complaining about the yard = success. Thankfully my neighbors are Ancient and hard of hearing so they don't mind the constant hammer blows. My anvil is only Iron so it doesn't sing the way its suppose to anyway. I live in Balitmore and the weather has prevented me from doing any work for the past week or so. I'm DYING over here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Chacoal would be old school, Coal is a fairly modern discovery. What makes you think an anvil should be loud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Charcoal as fuel for smithing predates coal by over 1000 years---if you include bronze and copper smithing add another couple of thousand! According to Geis & Gies in "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" coal started being used for blacksmithing around the high to late middle ages. Charcoal has remained one of the top forge fuels through today as you can make it almost anywhere and it doesn't have the sulfur issues that coal does. So as I recall the Foxfire books talk about smithing with charcoal, traditionally made japanese swords are forged with charcoal, viking swords were forged with charcoal. It really helps to use a forge designed for charcoal over coal though! I'm Tri---I forge with propane, coal and charcoal using a different forge for each! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swords9023 Posted January 16, 2014 Author Share Posted January 16, 2014 I would consider something that has been used for the past 500-1000 years to be "old school". By definition if you aren't using the most modern method possible to do something, you are doing it old school. I would like to eventually use propane just to compare the results to coal/charcoal. As far as an anvil being loud, I know it doesn't HAVE to be loud. I just like how a good steel anvil sings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 So gas forges and oil forges are "old school" as they have been in use over 100 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admanfrd Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Maybe you could get a 16-55 gallon steel drum for free or cheap from an oil change place. Cut it half lengthwise, fill partially w/ sand or firebrick and run the pipe above that. I was thinking about doing something similar for larger knives as I'm currently limited to a 5" blade. Check out this link, http://www.stormthecastle.com/blacksmithing/how-to-make-a-sword-forge.htm I just finished this exact same setup. on my blog daily posts of a learning smith if you want to see it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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