Fire Inspection: A small smithy in a commercial space.

[FYORRG]

Hello there. I've recently opened a gallery with my girlfriend and a leatherworker. We've all agreed that we must have a forge in the back. It'll just be a gas forge, anvil, postvice and a grinding station. Been brainstorming and I've contacted the local fire prevention officer to come see the space and figure out what needs to happen.

 

Here are my ducks so far:

- A small room will be built with fire retardant walls and windows to protect spectators from sparks and slag

- Will install a restaurant-style vent as well as an intake.

- Will have CO/explosive gas detector in the room

- The floor is solid ceramic tile

- Emergency exit is right next to this proposed room

- There are are 2 other businesses in the same structure

 

Perhaps my homemade gas forge doesn't look as professional as the fire inspector might like? I expect that this will be my biggest hurdle. Its the refractory-lined propane cylinder atmospheric type of forge. I've used it for almost one year, so I am pretty confident of its level of safety.  I haven't looked into tapping any gas lines but I imagine this is a real possibility.

 

Anyone have experience with this scenario? I'd love to hear your suggestions.

 

,K

[ThomasPowers]

Got the propane tank outside?  Don't know WHAT COUNTRY YOU ARE IN; but here in the USA having propane tanks inside is a double purple no no!

[FYORRG]

I'd expect similar up here in Canada. Theres little to no possibilty of having a tank outside the building. Perhaps I can tap into a city gas line. Flashback arrestors fitted into my fuel system may score extra brownie points!

[FYORRG]

Propane Forge Safety

 

http://njba.abana-chapter.com/pfs/pfs.htm

 

This one made me shudder...

 

9. Propane is denser than air and can settle in basins or run along the ground to a source of ignition, then flash-back. It could also drain into a sewer and cause an underground explosion hazard. It can fill up a basement, ignite from a furnace or other appliance, and demolish a house.

[DSW]

Expect a lot of ignorance on the part of the inspector. Make sure you have as much documentation  as possible to back up what you want to do otherwise he'll probably just say "No" if he doesn't know an answer.

 

 

I got hassled by the Fire Marshal one time because of my SCUBA cylinders. He kept telling me they'd be a hazard in a fire. I finally asked him why he allowed his firemen to run into burning buildings wearing breathing air cylinders if they are such a great hazard in a fire. He snaps back that their cylinders are full of air... And I asked him what he thought the label on the side of my cylinder that said "breathing air" meant... and why his air was less dangerous than mine was when his cylinders were filled to twice the pressure mine were.

 

 

He just didn't understand what was going on, so took the attitude anything that he didn't know about must be dangerous.

[ThomasPowers]

Flash back arrestors are for acetylene that can exothermically dissassociate even without the presence of Oxygen!  

 

They also may serve a purpose when combining a lower pressure fuel gas with high pressure O2 that under perverse circumstances could backfill the fuel line.  Oxy-Propane or Oxy-NG

 

On a typical aspirated forge set up they are as useful as having one on a water hose!

[Wildernessmedic]

Expect a lot of ignorance on the part of the inspector. I got hassled by the Fire Marshal one time because of my SCUBA cylinders. 

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Maybe he thought that divers dove with pure 02 hahaha...

[Glenn]

I would put a fire extinguisher (CO2) close to the forge and another fire extinguisher close to the exit of the smithing area. There is no clean up with CO2.  You never finish cleaning up from a dry powder extinguisher if you set one off.

[DSW]

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Maybe he thought that divers dove with pure 02 hahaha...

 

 

I'd give him that. Quite a few people think divers always use pure O2 vs some sort of mix.

 

 

I couldn't quite figure out why he had an issue with my O2 however. I can have as much 100% medical O2 as I want at the house, but apparently 100% welding O2 is dangerous... Don't ask me why. No big deal, I just went to a friend of mine I dive with who is a diving physician and got a "prescription" for medical O2 ( I used it anyways for mixing dive gas, but now I had all the proper paperwork to go with it) Funny my OA torch doesn't seem to notice the difference.

 

 

I need to pick up a couple of CO2 extinguishers. I keep thinking about it when I'm over at the fire supply place getting my hydros done. However you may find you still need a dry chemical extinguisher in the shop to make the fire marshal happy since CO2 isn't an ABC type extinguisher. I do have one of those old water ones that you top off with air pressure to handle small fires in the parking area ( seems no matter how far I blow all the leaves, as soon as I light the forge they magically reappear. Down side of having a shop in the woods I guess)

[notownkid]

You would do good to research what is needed as far as the inspection goes and requirements/codes. I use to be a Fire Chief and my experience with Inspectors was if they didn't know the answer or requirement they would make it up and run with it. Also you can ask 4 inspectors the same question and get at least 3 different answers. We had a plumbing inspector tell us the vent in our new Firehouse was installed wrong and when we questioned him about it he said it was in fact Code the way we did it BUT he didn't like the code so wanted it his way, after calling the State the CODE WON!

You will end up with an ABC Dry Chemical Exting. before you get done and hope you don't have to use it. Be sure everyone in your shop has training in the use of Exting. as they may need to save you. I've seen people add foam concentrate to the old Pressure Water ones as well, no credit for them but they work great.

Love to see the face of the officials when you tell them you want to "tap" into the gas main. Again check in advance so you know what the codes are.

Our divers filled their Scuba tanks on the same compressor we used for SBCA fire tanks. We had a Fire Insurance Inspector tell us it wasn't safe to have spare SBCA Tanks setting on a Radiant Heated Floor as it might cause them to burst from over heating! Not sure what planet he was from but a call to his company sent him back there.

Good Luck

[FYORRG]

Flash back arrestors are for acetylene that can exothermically dissassociate even without the presence of Oxygen!  

 

They also may serve a purpose when combining a lower pressure fuel gas with high pressure O2 that under perverse circumstances could backfill the fuel line.  Oxy-Propane or Oxy-NG

 

On a typical aspirated forge set up they are as useful as having one on a water hose!

 

What sort of perverse conditions are these?

[BobL]

I would put a fire extinguisher (CO2) close to the forge and another fire extinguisher close to the exit of the smithing area. There is no clean up with CO2.  You never finish cleaning up from a dry powder extinguisher if you set one off.

At work we had a small fire in a small water chiller inside a laboratory containing multi-million $ electronic equipment. A security guard responding to the alarm thought he could put the fire out with a extinguisher but instead of using the special water misting extinguishers or fire blanket from inside the lab he grabbed a dry powder extinguisher from the corridor. The fire was put out in 3 seconds but he had the extinguisher on for maybe 10 seconds. The laboratory was shut down for 4 months  and despite spending $40,000 on a specialist electronics cleanup crew, it didn't work because the equipment had lots of big and little cooling fans that had sucked the powder into the equipment and there was powder trapped in between the components etc so some of the equipment had to be replaced and this took nearly 21 months. The final cost was well over a million dollars but that does not reflect the BIG hassles we had with most of the people involved i.e. the manufacturers of the chiller;  insurer;, various lawyers, and the lost productivity.  That's a 2 year period of my life I was real glad to leave behind when I retired.

 

FYORRG, If you ever decide to go with city gas you might be interested in some of my safety systems at the end of this thread '?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>>

I have since also added a no-volt switch switch to the gas supply solenoid. The reason for this is if after a power failure (which will automatically shut down the gas) and I don't managed to manually switch off the gas, I want the gas supply to stay off and not come back again on if the power comes back on again. 

[Ric Furrer]

Flash back arrestors are for acetylene that can exothermically dissassociate even without the presence of Oxygen!  

 

They also may serve a purpose when combining a lower pressure fuel gas with high pressure O2 that under perverse circumstances could backfill the fuel line.  Oxy-Propane or Oxy-NG

 

On a typical aspirated forge set up they are as useful as having one on a water hose!

Thomas,

As I understood it the arrestor has a mesh inside that melts and stops the flow of gas...in addition to only allowing one way flow.

 

Ric

[FYORRG]

The fire official came to consult with us about the space. He recalls there being forge in his elementary school when he was in grade five! He seems to have a positive attitude about the project. So they want me to have a ULC/CSA approved forge installed. I called N.C. tools about this and they said the components used are approved but the unit as a whole is not. Anyone know of any forges that are approved?

 

@BobL: The power-failure safety feature is a bonus. Thanks for the idea!

[ELHEAD]

Exoterically disassociated ??

[Avadon]

I don't know about getting involved with the firemarshall right off. I would call your local building department. They can point you to the building codes in your state and list all the things you have to comply to in order to meet code. The reason I say this is they are building inspectors, so they actually know everything, by law, that needs to be done to a building for it to comply with all the fire-safety codes. They are not just guessing as to what is or is not dangerous based on their own experience. Also you can call them and they'll answer all your questions and it's not like they're the gestapo and going to come down and redflag you. They don't do that. They just tell you what the code (laws) are and what is required whether you do them or not is your business. If you need to be inspected for insurance reasons or for the landlords or other reasons or just trying to comply completely with all regulations, I would certainly start with the county. If they give you a pass then any fire inspector that looks at it won't have much to say.

They will tell you things like what kind of windows you need(and their fire rating), what kind of sheet rock (usually a minimum of 1/2 type x gypsum, taped and mudded), what kind of doors and their fire rating and also what type of egress you need. Whether you need more than one exist from where the forge is, etc. But anyway that's not my 2cents. Don't fear your local bldng department. They're not evil, they just are there to tell you the law, prevent you from injuring yourself or others and make sure you do it right the first time. If you decide to not comply, that's at your own risk. But always better to know and not comply then not know you're not even complying lol

[DSW]

. The reason I say this is they are building inspectors, so they actually know everything, by law, that needs to be done to a building for it to comply with all the fire-safety codes. They are not just guessing as to what is or is not dangerous based on their own experience. Also you can call them and they'll answer all your questions and it's not like they're the gestapo and going to come down and redflag you. They don't do that. .

Don't fear your local bldng department. They're not evil, they just are there to tell you the law, prevent you from injuring yourself or others and make sure you do it right the first time.

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously you haven't dealt with building inspectors and their offices very much on a regular basis. While I'll admit that over the 20+ years I've worked in construction I've come across a few inspectors that fit your description. I'd be lying if I said that the number was more than 1% of all the ones I've dealt with over the years though.  If you are talking to the secretaries, then maybe that percentage goes up to 35 to 50% that are actually helpful. The vast majority of inspectors have small closed minds and are typically lazy.

 

 

I could spend hours typing talking about issues I've had with building inspectors over the years. The vast majority of the time it wasn't over a "violation" of the code, but simply because they didn't actually know the codes themselves, or thought their way was "better" than what the code required.

 

 

As far as fearing the fearing the building department. You should be afraid, very afraid. Many departments are simply interested in revenue gathering more than they are in safety. Fines and revenue "justify" their existence, as it shows they obviously are finding violations and are doing their jobs.  Start asking basic questions and you may well find that they will put you under the microscope looking for violations they can site you for. A neighbor of mine  last year inquired into what was required from the township as far as putting up one of those prefab, drop on site, sheds. The person on the line was very helpful, telling them setback requirements and the fact that they'd have to have a $100 permit no matter what type of shed it was. Well several weeks later the inspector shows up who just "happened" to be in the neighborhood. Turns out their back yard kiddie pool is in violation of the township ordinances. No fence, no permits... and hands them a decent sized fine as well as an order make a number of changes and alterations to things other than the pool. There's no way to see the pool from the street in the back yard. You can bet the reason he stopped by was to look and see if they'd put up a shed. If you read the ordinance, pretty much any quantity of water on your property deeper than 6" would require a fence. Township also doesn't care if your pool is a 4' dia inflatable my little pony kiddie pool or an Olympic sized pool as far as permit costs go. It's still a $300 permit.

[John McPherson]

Avadon, In my decades of experience in the family real estate business, the dealings with folks in the county code enforcement offices were sub-par for the DMV. They could not tell you anything to help you, but man, could they cripple you. What one would OK, the next random field agent would tell you was totally wrong, and to rip it all out. The things they did miss were staggering.

 

Every community has folks who, for a fee, will help you navigate the maze that code enforcement has become. The average person would have an easier time taking out their own appendix.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Might be better of installing a fire place or a charcoal grill ;-) in a weld shop.
Not sure about finding any approved forges, exept big $$ industrial units.
My thoughts in facing fire and environment safty is that a forge is no diferant than a commertial grill or a fire place. The work space itself a weld shop. As tbuilding codes for blacksmith shops are about 75 years out if date, those are the comparisans it make, and as it sounds like you have an alie in the inspector (tho he needs to protect his job) you might try that aproch. A charcoal forge might be a lot easer to get threw.