Savage Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Hey guys so amongst all the stuff im busy with i find the time to start making up a billet of auto bandsaw blade and pallet strapping. Ive managed to weld the two in the past on a smaller scale so i take it that its the right metals to weld. Anyways my 1st question is, should i try the whole stack as one billet(i dont have much experiance in damascus and get the gut feeling that i should split the billet into 2 or 3 stacks) or make 2? And the 2nd question is, is the blue auto hack saw blade in the 2nd ok for damascus, if so id have alot from work. If its helps the hack saw blade had HSS printed on the side, im guessing it means high speed steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 You just have to try it. Keep in mind you are welding high carbon to low carbon so the longer you keep the billet at welding temp the more carbon migration takes place so the fewer folds you have to make the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Which one is low carbon? I did a water quench test on the pallet strapping and when a light hammer blow hit it it shattered giving me the idea that its not low carbon but ive been wrong in the past so please correct me if i am. The blue auto hack saw blade is very high in carbon, i made a welding scraper from a piece of it and it broke with in seconds of scraping. I will try a billet of it with 4 layers of hack saw and 3 layers of the band saw blade. If it isnt a problem could you please explain the carbon migration thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgirard13 Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Bandsaw blades are usually 15n20 and general use pallet straps i think are in the high 10xx's steels. I started out making damascus using those to together and the knife turned out very hard and tough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 19, 2013 Share Posted May 19, 2013 Bandsaw blades are usually 15n20 and general use pallet straps i think are in the high 10xx's steels. I started out making damascus using those to together and the knife turned out very hard and tough. These are hack saw blades, not band saw blades so won't have the nickle content for flexible strength. It's something different. Be interesting to see how it works. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted May 20, 2013 Author Share Posted May 20, 2013 the 1st 2 pics are band saw and pallet strapping and the 3rd pic is of a big auto hack saw blade and you are right it is completely high speed steel and wont flex if its life depends on it, and I have cut up a few more pieces of 15n20 band saw blade to make a separate billet with the hack saw blade so itll be a high speed steel and 15n20 Damascus if it works, should have some seriously opposite colours from what I understand about carbon content in different steels. so I got 2 billets now. just need to sort out my forge and ill give it a try. These are hack saw blades, not band saw blades so won't have the nickle content for flexible strength. It's something different. Be interesting to see how it works. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 Which one is low carbon? I did a water quench test on the pallet strapping and when a light hammer blow hit it it shattered giving me the idea that its not low carbon but ive been wrong in the past so please correct me if i am. The blue auto hack saw blade is very high in carbon, i made a welding scraper from a piece of it and it broke with in seconds of scraping. I will try a billet of it with 4 layers of hack saw and 3 layers of the band saw blade. If it isnt a problem could you please explain the carbon migration thing? That's interestng, I did the same test and the banding got stiff but would still bend. It would seem that strapping was somwhere around .25% carbon. Yours broke that would tend to mean it was over .3%. Automotive hacksaw blades are sometimes bi-metal. I'm curious to see how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdworks Posted May 20, 2013 Share Posted May 20, 2013 I've got a big bandsaw blade I want to do Damascus out of. Looking forward to seeing your results! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 Thats true. I have spoken to an engineering store and got told that the ones painted blue are solid HSS and the bi metal blades are painted orange. It even has it printed on the sides. So i has the HSS one, very hard and not very flexible but if it works then im guessing the 15n20 in the bandsaw blade will make up for flexability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 I've got a big bandsaw blade I want to do Damascus out of. Looking forward to seeing your results! im still abit of a rookie so dont expect excelent results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted May 22, 2013 Author Share Posted May 22, 2013 This billet is the pallet strapping and bandsaw blade before its even welded, i ground the side flat and gave a 5 min etch in half water and half hydrochloric acid and bam, a nice color of pattern between the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Heres the end of the welded billet, very light etch, i plan on drawing it out and rounding it for a few twists and if it works maybe use it as a guard for a kife or maybe just a key ring. The final etch will be in hot muratic acid, i find that cold muratic doesnt etch as dark as hot muratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Pallet strapping ranges in carbon content. Test each piece before hand if you are worried about total C values. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cdworks Posted June 4, 2013 Share Posted June 4, 2013 Might give this a try this weekend on a small scale. Thanks for sharing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 4, 2013 Author Share Posted June 4, 2013 Your welcome, i plan on sharing all my progress as ive only tried damascus about 5 times, im not worried about carbon content as ive already tested the strapping and it would appear to be reasonably high, im hoping that the rest of the billet is welded as gud as the piece i cut off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 Well guys sadly the billet didnt fully weld, maybe because im using boric acid as a flux instead of borax? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backwoods Blacksmith Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Flux is not the problem. Heat is the problem. If the edges are welding and not the center then you are not leaving the billet in the fire long enough. What is your heat source? You need to turn the billet 90 degs about every minute reguardless of the heat source. Don't get in a hurry when heating. It always takes longer than you think. Did you weld more than once? 3 times is the charm. From the sample it shows the edges smooched. You are hitting too hard and may be causing the inner layers to move slightly. Flux is not a glue, it protects the hot metal from the unburned oxygen in the heat. How clean was the stackup? I always wash the pallet and saw material in hot viniger, hot water and the hit it with 60 grit on the belt grinder. Clean is better. But I think your real problem is heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmoothBore Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 Typically, damascus is NOT formed by welding a "stack" of separate pieces. Try welding 3 alternate pieces, ... drawing them out, ... repeat heat and flux, ... and then fold them back on themselves. In that way, you're always heating and welding the outside surfaces back to themselves.You never need to penetrate welding heat into the center of the billet, ... because every time you fold it, the outside becomes the center. Repeat the process of drawing out, and folding in half, until you have the desired number of laminations. It doesn't take as long as you might think, for 3 layers to become 6, ... 12, ... 24, ... 48, ... 96 ..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 6, 2013 Author Share Posted June 6, 2013 The heat part yes it is possible that i didnt soak it long enough but regarding hammering too hard i barely even hit it, more let the hammer drop onto it than hit, both steels were cleanly ground, is therea rule of thumb when it comes to letting it soak? I have a small gas forge with a half inch venturi burner running 10psi max. Only 86cu/in inside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 on the other hand I do use from 7 to 20 strips to begin a billet and weld the stack, as long as its clcean and fluxed, and I heat slowly and all the way through, I am fine, One of my mentors had done one of 300 layers of shim stock. But to start learning I agree with SmoothBore and work only 2 or 3 until you get it, to lesson the risk of failures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 7, 2013 Author Share Posted June 7, 2013 Ok so what would you suggest regarding metals? Unfortunatey here in NZ metals such as 15n20 and o-1 seem imposible to find and i am starting to think they dont have them here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 Ok guys so i gave the billet another 2 welding passes and it seemed to be solid so i drew out the billet, cut a few grooves into it and then dimpled it with a ball pein and then ground flush and etched, this is what i got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Backwoods Blacksmith Posted June 14, 2013 Share Posted June 14, 2013 Nice start. I just went through some stackups I have had laying around. Pallet banding, 1018 and sawmill bandsaw. 25 pieces in the stackup 6in long. According to my notes after welding and drawn out 3/16 thick 1 1/4 wide 17 in long. second stackup cut to 4 1/4 long add 1 piece of sawmill bandsaw blade between each and weld. second weld drawn out 1/4 thick 1 1/4 wide 12 inch long. This gives about 100 layers plus or minus. I will next cut to 3 in lengths, add band saw blade and weld. This should give about 400 layers. Draw out and make blades. I will post pic of results. I haven't done any PW in the last 12 years or so. Looks like I may start again. Good luck and have fun. Don't quit. It looks like you have it well in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Posted June 14, 2013 Author Share Posted June 14, 2013 Haha i look forward to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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