Tong rings

[Eddie Mullins]

The Biomechanics thread and this post below in particular has me pondering the use of tong rings to hold the tongs closed.

 

I'm a newb, and with the injury to my dominant arm, haven't thought or focused a lot about what I am doing with or to my off hand, but I can relate to the post below. I have noted some discomfort in my left hand after using tongs for an extended period. I try to avoid using tongs when possible, just seems more natural and efficient to me, but I had not given rings much thought, mainly because I haven't been exposed to them. The vast majority of the tongs I have seen to date, did not use any rings. I can definitely see benefits though, and not just from an ergonomic standpoint.

 

Just curious how common they are and who uses them, and what some of the benefits other than ergonimics might be. Or what are the drawbacks to them?

 

I think I'll make some with, or a ring that I can use with current to judge for myself, but would like your thoughts also.

 

A couple of the above recent posts prompted me to add that I no longer grip tongs in my off hand to hold material.  I always either grasp material to be heated with tongs that have a ring permanently attached to one rein or I place a separate ring over the reins - the only exception is if I am able to handle the stock without using tongs.  This one small change really helped me focus on forging without worrying whether my grip would slip and made a big difference at the end of the day with regard to how tired I felt.  I think the late Bruce Lee's comments regarding "economy of motion" in the martial arts can also apply to any manual exercise - always aim to do the least amount of work in the shortest possible time while still achieving the desired result.

 

 

[Maillemaker]

I haven't used tong rings before, but I understand the appeal of not having to worry about the work slipping out of the jaws.

 

I think the problem a lot of young smiths have is a "death grip" on the tongs.  The tongs are not your enemy, you're not trying to throttle them.  It's hard on both your tongs and your hand.

 

Of course, if your workpiece is long enough, just hold it with your hand.  Your hands are some of the most responsive and versatile tools in your shop.

[Waylon63]

Hi Eddie. I'm in ne OK. I have a couple of tong clips/tong rings I use occasionally. Mostly on smaller pieces. One of the drawbacks I see is the tongs getting hot  leaving them on while heating the piece. They're very handy though. most of the time I too forge pieces long enough tongs are not necessasary. Also have you ben to Your Dr. lately? there are some "complaints" we have that are side effects of some major medical problems. I have recently been diagnosed with Diabetes. My feet being sore or feeling like my sock is rolled up in my boot. is due to peripheral neuropathy, the trigger finger I've experienced is a side effect as well. I hope this helps.

[HWooldridge]

Since you quoted me in the other thread, I'll expand a bit here.  When I first started in smithing, I landed a contract to make a bunch of repetitive pieces for the craft business - mostly hooks and other small items.  My production runs were anywhere from a couple hundred to a 1000 items at a time and all of those pieces were hand forged (I got REALLY good at forging points).  I was limited to using a coal fire at the time and small pieces would fall down into the pot if they were not held in tongs so in order to maintain some level of efficiency, I made several sets of identical tongs so multiple items could be heating while I was hammering away.  To keep them locked, I would forge out one rein end so it could be looped around to contain a ring, then the ring could be flipped over to hold a piece.  As time went on, I expanded the concept by cutting off short sections of black pipe in various sizes and hammering them into ovals that could be dropped over the reins.

 

This practice eventually became a habit for me so I tend to rarely hold short pieces anymore with my natural hand strength.  I do not have a weak grip or any type of chronic injury but I also believe that anything a person can do to reduce the wear and tear on the body will only serve to lengthen his/her effective working career.  I've known several strong young men who could toss a 400 lb steer for branding while in their 20's but can barely walk in their 40's because their back is blown out.  I am in my mid-50's and I still run, lift weights and try to maintain a health lifestyle - part of my philosophy is the notion that working hard is OK so long as you are smart about it.  Using tong rings is not a magic solution but I believe everyone should try to give some thought to what they do in the shop with regard to safety and repetitive motion then use what works the best for your situation.

[John B]

I think the problem a lot of young smiths have is a "death grip" on the tongs.  The tongs are not your enemy, you're not trying to throttle them.  It's hard on both your tongs and your hand.

 

The other main problem is ill fitting tongs,

 

Proper fitting tongs with a rein ring on are just like using an extended bar, you can remove the ring when heating the workpiece, then withdraw and put the rein ring on.

 

If you are having difficulty with small pieces in the fire slipping down, consider using a hot pot chamber/container to hold multiple small items without losing or burning them.

[HWooldridge]

The other main problem is ill fitting tongs,

 

Proper fitting tongs with a rein ring on are just like using an extended bar, you can remove the ring when heating the workpiece, then withdraw and put the rein ring on.

 

If you are having difficulty with small pieces in the fire slipping down, consider using a hot pot chamber/container to hold multiple small items without losing or burning them.

 

I agree completely about the problem of ill fitting tongs - those are dangerous regardless of how they are gripped.

 

I also now have a couple of gas forges and it's much easier to place small items on the shelf for heating.

[Eddie Mullins]

I will agree with the "death grip" and "ill fitting" issues being a contributor. My focus being on my hammer hand, I think my off hand has been given secondary priority, and it shouldn't. Being new to smithing, my tong collection is small, but growing. A side effect of that is that I don't have the best fitting tongs for each task, and I have probably been griping too tightly uncesarily as well.

 

It would seem to me that a springer rein, but still providing adequate gripping on the stock, and properly fitted to the stock is best. I know I need to make tongs better suited to larger stock so that a wide, more open grip is not required.

 

I can also related to the concept of the tongs when clipped to a piece acting like an extended bar. Working alone I find myself looking for ways to complete tasks with just my two hands, this often requires some ingenuity. I think having a ring on the tongs could be useful from this aspect as well.

[Alan Evans]

It is a well explored technology! Think of surgical forceps and I bet Mr Mole and Mr Vice Grip used them as the basis for their tools!

When I was starting out and had ill fitting tongs that meant the tong reins were too wide at their tips to get a ring on I found that a "C" clip could be slid on from the jaw end effectively. As the "C" clip can be used from both ends I tended to make most of them to that form.

I have some very nicely made box jointed slide grip pliers which also use the principle, I will try and post a photo.

I always reckoned that the workpiece hand was equally if not more important than the hammer hand in achieving a form. No matter how precisely you drop the hammer if the workpiece is not in the correct position you will never get there.

Alan

[Frosty]

The off hand is at least as important to forging as your hammer hand, maybe more. Your brain gathers information from every available sense, whether you're aware of it or not. It's one of my main aims teaching the craft, you MUST listen to the metal. By listening I mean pay attention to it, your eyes only tell a fraction of the story Afterwards. Sure you plan by what you see but your ears and the feel you get from your holding hand and less so your hammer hand tells you what is happening as it happens.

 

Having a comfortable grip on the work is essential. If you have to take a death grip you lose the sensitivity to know what you need to know. It's FAR easier to adapt to ear muffs or plugs, heck both at once if necessary. A death grip is also exhausting AND injurious if prolonged. Carpal Tunnel anyone?

 

So fitting your tongs is really important, REALLY. Fitting also means fitting the reins so they're at a comfortable distance while on the stock, so your grip is at it's strongest point without having to clamp on it. tThis means the work is held solidly without you having to take a death grip AND your hand is in it's strongest position. ALWAYS wort to your strength and the material's weakest point. Think of this as Sun Tsu's primary tennet, call it The Art Of WAR for blacksmiths.

 

Tong rings or clips are very good things, now all you have to do is hold the stock where you want it and NOT actually have to hold on to it. It helps to make your tong reins for a ring, little upset  balls or finial bends really help. I use a removable slip ring when I want one. with nothing in the tongs, close the reins and slide it over. Down by the rivet and you have free use of the tongs, when you have the work gripped, spring the reins with a hard grip and slide the tong ring till it's tight  at the end and that's it. My ring isn't a ring ring, it's a flattened oval about 5/8" ID by 3" OD. they don't need to be welded links but it only takes a couple secods to five the a little mig wire so mine are welded.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[windancer]

Many great ideas going on in this thread.

Thanks to all for posting!

[Eddie Mullins]

Just as a little update I have made any rings/clips yet, still making tongs, an examing the right fit to the stock.

 

I can't say as I reccomend this to others, but for a quick evalaution I took some wire and made a few wraps around the handles to mimic what I could expect from having rings and I really liked it. I was able to rotate the tongs without worry of maintaing pressure on the reins to hold the stock in place, so no death grip : ) . I also was able to make use of shorter material and use the tongs as an extension, whilst both hands were freed for punching, etc.

[Frosty]

Ahhh, a step closer to nirvana! I hadn't thought of it before, a couple winds of wire can be a temporary tong ring. Cool.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[petere76]

Gents,

Quick tong rings, cut off a slice of square tubing in the appropriate size. Use the vice to control squish one side until you get the exact size you need. I use these quick and easy rings al the time, they work great.

Under the power hammer, rings on the tongs are a very good idea. You don't want anything coming adrift when you are smacking it with 50 lbs at 300 BPM and you are standing next to it. Many of us work alone and anything we can to limit the potential craziness is a good thing

Peter

[Eddie Mullins]

 I know this is an old thread but wanted to say I did finally make some tong rings, wish I had done it day 1. Mine are simple, 1/4 inch round bent into ovals, made several sizes for fitting different tongs or different size stock in the same tongs. These have to be one of the simplest and most beneficial projects for any smith.

[Frank Turley]

I have tong rein clips which were plasma cut into a slight crescent shape from flat stock and have fuller-like indentations in the concave side for adjustment.

 

By hearsay, I'm told to not use a circular ring on tongs when at the power hammer, or it may slip off and hit you. Shape it like a chain link.

 

Sometimes, you won't be using any sort of rein holder as for instance, forging a horseshoe. The tongs are constantly changing position depending on which area of the shoe you're working on.

[SJS]

C clips, chain links, slices of round and square tubing, plasma cut clips all help a ton to reduce hand fatigue... Keeps you smarter and able to work longer, in the short and the long run;-). Some people like heavy tongs, and don't give them the death grip that they do light tongs... I love light springy tongs personally, endless I need more mass to handle the stock in the fire like a good sized chunk of steel for a hammer or some such. Personally don't care for ball end tongs, you have to use c clips then. But thin reins out of spring steel you can use all kinds of rings and clips, just got to keep an eye on them while working on the power hammer;-)

[tulsavw]

I visited Ed Brazeal's forge recently and used some of his "rings", which were just like how petere76 described: squashed square tube. I believe they were 2", and they worked like a charm. These were use with some bolt tongs with the balls on the end.

 

Aside from the convenience of quickly making many (made easy with a portable band saw), the other advantage that I think makes these such a good option is that the squashed diamond shape slides oblong over the reins, then turned 90 degrees which locks the reins into the angle of the short side.

[HWooldridge]

I visited Ed Brazeal's forge recently and used some of his "rings", which were just like how petere76 described: squashed square tube. I believe they were 2", and they worked like a charm. These were use with some bolt tongs with the balls on the end.
 
Aside from the convenience of quickly making many (made easy with a portable band saw), the other advantage that I think makes these such a good option is that the squashed diamond shape slides oblong over the reins, then turned 90 degrees which locks the reins into the angle of the short side.

You also automatically have two ring sizes when you squeeze a piece of square into a diamond - so several "squash" sizes will yield a wide variety of combinations.

[windancer]

Sorry guys, too thick to understand the concept of squashed tubing. will someone post a couple pics so I can understand?

Thanks

Dave

[Rashelle]

I don't have picks Dave but I can try to explain. Picture taking square tubing, heat up (or do it cold) squish two opposing corners in towards each other, creating a diamond. Two of the corners are now closer to each other and the other two are further apart. You might want to cut 1/2"-1" sections from the tubing, just slice off the pieces with a hacksaw or band saw. The diamond profile pieces can then be slipped over the tong reins with the longer distance corners slipped over. Then turn the diamond on it's axis so the short distance corners are over the reins, thus tightening them.

 

<> squashed tube side profile. slip over reins with reins in a left to right configuration, then turn diamond 90 degrees. Hope I didn't confuse the issue some more.  

[Alan Evans]

It seems to me that slices off a bit of hollow section as tong rings sounds like a recipe for nipped fingers. By the time you have gone round taking all the sharp edges off with your file and angle sander you could have bent a couple of skin friendly 4, 5 or 6mm (3/16", 7/32", 1/4") round bar ones to any size you wanted rather than restricting yourself to the sizes of available hollow sections...

 

Alan

[Eddie Mullins]

It seems to me that slices off a bit of hollow section as tong rings sounds like a recipe for nipped fingers. By the time you have gone round taking all the sharp edges off with your file and angle sander you could have bent a couple of skin friendly 4, 5 or 6mm (3/16", 7/32", 1/4") round bar ones to any size you wanted rather than restricting yourself to the sizes of available hollow sections...

 

Alan

 

I was wondering the samething, but they seem quite popular and as I have not tried them myself, I can't really say.

 

The "C" clips out of round stock are working quite qell for me, and I will probably have to stick with this style as I like to put a flare at the end of my tong reins which I think would not work well for clips that have to slide on from the end. The C clips I place on above the out flared ends and then slide forward to tighten.

[Alan Evans]

After experiencing a few "moments of terror" when I squeezed the reins too hard only to hear the ring hit the ground behind me…or worse...not hear it and only discover the ring had gone when I had relaxed my grip, I too made some tongs with a ball on one rein as a ring retainer, and also some with flared ends…with limited success I suppose.

 

The "C" clips do seem to be more versatile for me, depending on th configuration of the tongs they can go on from the jaw end and back  or the rein end and forward.

 

I do understand the theory of the two size grip diamond shape of the squashed hollow section but can't help feeling that with a bit of squeeze /relax they would swivel round to the long axis at an awkward moment. When holding the tongs oriented with the reins above and below and therefore with the long axis of the diamond horizontal they must be a prime candidate for catching in your shirt, apron or belt loops….But as you say I have not tried them, I can't really say!

 

I have seen in a number of forges, tongs with a lump on the end of one rein which retains a hook and ring which could slide up and down with out coming off and could then be clipped onto the other rein.

 

I do actually dislike using tongs and avoid them where I can. There are so many things which reduce the feedback from the workpiece. By the time you have all the sensory deprivatory gear on like ear defenders, gloves, glasses, boots there is not much left to inform you of what is happening at the hot end, so at least if you leave a length on the end of the workpiece as a handle you have a direct link to the hammer and anvil. Tongs however well-fitting have a different mass and dynamic response than the parent bar. I quite often cut the bar twice as long as needed and work either end before cutting in half.

 

I should say that the majority of my forge work seems to be long bars under the power hammer, rather than billets/chumps or hand forging on the anvil which both tend to require tongs, so my take on it should be viewed with that in mind.

 

Alan

[ThomasPowers]

I use pipe sections for tools that get held by tongs and do not change often.  The rings I use are generally 6 inches towards the bits from where my hands are, I can't see where they would nip fingers???

 

I have had a couple of incidents where C rings have gotten dislodged and proved gravity still works; bit I keep a selection of multi position  C rings around for students having tong trouble.

[Alan Evans]

As a student having tong trouble...who also usually has two hands on the tongs, there is always one of them close to the ring or clip. My tong rings do not end up in the same place on every tong so even if using them single handed there is a chance of finger proximity. Can you see now Thomas? :)

 

"Nipped fingers" was used to try and encapsulate my feeling of discomfort towards the idea of sawn box section with its concomitant sharp edges and non hand friendly form when compared to a round bar chain link or c clip style.

 

Alan