The 90 degree Boogie

[bigfootnampa]

UMmmm- billyO I think you don't have to worry about steps toward curmudgeonry... you are there!  Just my scientific-ish semi-opinion though!

[Dan P.]

I do both ways, and I boogie primarily to keep stock in section. I haven't noticed any difference in speed, per se, just in the ability to keep stock in section, which I suppose equates to speed, ultimately.

[Timothy Miller]

I'm glad you added the "semi", because, as you no doubt realize, you were only able to control 3 out of many variables (1) number of heats, (2) number of blows, and (3) to boogie or not to boogie (which is the question).  There were no adequate controls for: force of impact, speed/rate of blows, accuracy of blows, accuracy of the boogie, consistent placement of piece on horn, temperature of steel, among others I may not be grouping in these generalizations.  So 'semi' may be too generous.  You started to apply the scientific method, for sure, and controlled what you could to the extent you could, but nowhere near scientific quality, so perhaps a better wording would have been "semi, scientific-ish" test.

 

I only bring this up because of numerous comments over the years on this site of how this is an educational site, and I would not want an uninformed individual to read this thread and then think that this is a representative test of how the material behaves. 

 

 

PS - I hope this isn't just one more step in my turning into a crumudgeon.....

I will address some of your points.  Force of impact wile there is no way I posses to measure my the force of my blows.  I do though have a very good feel for how hard I am striking.  I basically hit it as hard as I could on both samples.  I have been forging for 20 years most of it professionally I can vary my blows or strike consistently, all smiths can do this with practice. Just like an basketball player knows how hard to throw the ball to get into the hoop.  I know for example it takes me 5 blows to set a 1/4" rivet with a 2.5 lb hammer. By "speed of blows" I assume you mean blows per min.  I keep a consistent rate just like a drummer can keep time.  There is no way unless I was spacing out my blows so slowly that the metal cooled more on one sample than the other the effect would be negligible.   "Temp of the steel"  my induction heater was set to heat the sample for 25 seconds at the same setting so the heat was the same this was actually the most controlled aspect of my test.  The "placement on the horn"  was with in 1/4" of each other the horn is large so the radius does not change very much at all over that short a distance.  I am used to going back to the same spot on an anvil to take advantage of a certain surface as are all experienced smiths.  As far as accuracy of the boogie I turned it 90 degrees or as close as I could after each blow. The pieces look rough because I stomped before truing them up.  I'm not sure how being super precise about this would effect the outcome because we are talking about hand work and testing hand work.  Hey at least I am not just giving my opinion I did a test. Many people on this site state their personal opinions as fact.  I personally think it is just a stylistic difference.  I was surprised by my results I would have figured that the results would have been equal.   I think in very small stock this trick is of use because of the kneading effect generating heat.

[MLMartin]

It seems like everyone is talking about working square bat or section material, yes ? no? I personally try to rotate square section between blows.

 

But dose anyone rotate the bar between blows while working flat bar? say you are drawing a ribbon taper on 1" by 3/8" flat bar, (drawing the taper in the 3/8" section while maintaining 1" wide)

 

It seems like it would be hard to do this. The force in the hammer blow would have to be varied with each turn.

 

Thoughts? 

[Patrick Nowak]

In the work I do, I find that I have much more control of the final size and shape if I forge one side and flip. If you are doing work that is prone to piping, such as the mokume I work, using the hit turn approach has a greater risk that you will make a diamond due to the fact that you have to very quickly get the piece square to the plane of the die while balanced on the bulged out spot. Though you have all those bulges when working one side and then flipping, you can get you be more sure of you alignment before you start the next pass. Additionally, when working laminated materials, the way in which you work the metal will affect the final appearance of the pattern. On large industrial forgings where I have a concern about piping, I advise the forge crews forge from square to round working the full length of one corner before rotating to the next corner because that alignment is so critical to the prevention of piping.

[FieryFurnace]

I've often watched smiths turn their work on the anvil and the power hammer (sometimes at mind boggling speed) 90 deg each time they strike the bar they're forging. I rarely do this prefering to work down one side and then the other.....What if any is the advantage of this?

 

It really keeps the stock hotter, longer, hands down. If and when done correctly you can actually take and increase the heat in the bar. It would probably be difficult to show on video, but it can be seen in person.

[Timothy Miller]

It really keeps the stock hotter, longer, hands down. If and when done correctly you can actually take and increase the heat in the bar. It would probably be difficult to show on video, but it can be seen in person.

I think your right but if you have many pieces to do why do the extra hand hammering.  Why not put the stock back in the forge and grab one that is at full forging heat.  I bet at the end of the day you got more work done with less effort.

[mike-hr]

I can see the merits of the 90 degree hit, turn. I rarely use it. I like to stomp the treadle to the floor, and pull the work toward me, then index 90 degrees, and repeat. I can't quantify this, but, why subject one's wrist to yet another repetative-use injury by flipping work hundreds of times a day for the sake of saving a small percentage of heat?

[billyO]

 but, why subject one's wrist to yet another repetative-use injury by flipping work hundreds of times a day for the sake of saving a small percentage of heat?

Now Mike brings up probably the best argument for either side (why didn't I think of that?). 

Thanks for thinking out of the box, Mike. 

[lcb]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

[billyO]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Unfortunately, it looks like they were dropped on the way to the keyboard....

[aessinus]

FeaxannevaLem, I have no idea what you are saying, but it was kinda fun to read.  I make up words too, sometimes. 

 

Just wow...  You scored four of those posts in a row. 

[Borntoolate]

I have noticed that when finishing a point at the far edge it goes way faster and actually finishes the job with hit turn.   Whereas hit hit etc just makes it last forever, is not as neat etc.     The heat sucked out of the metal is a big deal due to the piece being thin.    But I think one could take Brain's comments above and think in terms of this example that I suspect we can all identify with and see where our brain then end up?   I suspect it would be hit turn?   Seems like if it is good for finishing a point or maybe even necessary then it should also apply everywhere else. 

 

also, when you hit are you HIT-ting or are you tap tapping.   One solid hit requires a turn perhaps.   Wheras tap tap doesn't.   But then heavy stock can take hit hit hit without needing a turn?    Acchh!   So many variables.

    

I have also used the hit hit method myself and I think I have done this when I am really working something fairly thick where I probably don't have the hammer/tong control I need for hit turn (or at least don't beleive I do). But I always notice the sooner I can get to hit turn the quicker things go.

 

Some evenings after work it's really more about HITTING something!

[Wroughton]

Like Sam, my 55lb Stryker @240 bpm doesn't allow much room for error while doing the "boogie". 

 

The hammer on the video is running around 170. I might have to try the double tap.

 

Go schmieden sumpthin!

[SoCal Dave]

I found on my 50# LG, going slow also meant very light taps.  When I start to really move the metal, the rpm's came up and I found it difficult to accurately do the boogie.  I found the hip turn to be easier for me at a two tap per side.  So, for my hammer, at this stage in my skill level, it's two taps or more per side.  The proof is in the pudding and not so much in the technic.   

[macbruce]

''You can  boogie all the iron some of the time, and
some of the iron all the time, but you cannot boogie all the iron all
the time''.............mb......  :P  .