100LB Peter Wright Repair-Preheat

[PaulKrzysz]

I have a 100lb Peter Wright with par of the top plate missing. I am going to build it back up using 7018 rod.

My question is regarding the preheat. I have read that it should be preheated to 400 f but from other sources I have also read not too go so hot. 

Will preheating it cause it to go soft and is 400 f the right temp?

Also I was thinking of doing the last layer with hardfacing rod. Is this is necessary step or is the 7018 enough?

 

Thank you

[doc]

Preheating to 400 shouldn't soften the face any if at all. After looking at your pics I'd make sure to grind back on the remaining part of the face to make certain there isn't still some delamination still there. Also be certain to remove all that rust down to clean iron before welding.

[MOblacksmith0530]

A few years ago I repaired the face of a 108 lb Peter Wright. I preheated too 450. Welded with stoody buildup and finished with stoody hard face rod. It has held up well and I can't really notice and softening of the face. I The stoody rods are 1105 and 2110 if my memory is correct. I don't remember which one was which.

[Fatfudd]

I had a Trenton anvil that had the face partially replaced with 7018 rod. It was very soft and even after work hardening it still showed dents even with hot metal.

It may cost a little more but if you can use the stoody rods you'll be much happier in the long run.

[Rockcrusher]

For this repair I would probably cut the remaining tool steel top plate square and clean up the top on what was left. Then you could bevel the soft wrought body on both sides where the plate is missing to allow for weld. Then clamp a new piece of tool plate level with the remaining face and weld the bottom of the new plate to the body of the anvil. Of course there are lots of ways to skin a cat. Building it up with weld will probably work fine also.  Ed.

[Dead Creek Forge]

I have an anvil that i had to get repaired and i had the guy pre heat the face to about 400F and it really softened the face.....after that i had learned to only heat it up around 250F

[PaulKrzysz]

I have an anvil that i had to get repaired and i had the guy pre heat the face to about 400F and it really softened the face.....after that i had learned to only heat it up around 250F

That was my concern originally. I spoke to a welder who has been in the trade for over 30 years. He told me as long as I keep the thing cooling very slowly it should be ok. I forgot what it was called but he said to buy one thing that will keep it cooling very slowly  so slowly that even the next day it will be too hot to touch.

I do not really understand that because it sounds like annealing to me but that was what he said.

 

A few years ago I repaired the face of a 108 lb Peter Wright. I preheated too 450. Welded with stoody buildup and finished with stoody hard face rod. It has held up well and I can't really notice and softening of the face. I The stoody rods are 1105 and 2110 if my memory is correct. I don't remember which one was which.

Did you not notice the softening (as in it DID in fact soften but was unnoticeable) or was there no softening at all?

[MOblacksmith0530]

Paulky,

It did not appreciably soften. It is still seemingly as hard as it ever was. A file will hardly touch it but it will if you bear down. The hardfacing rods I used seem to be about the same harness after some use as the original face and it is acceptably hard. If I hit it with the corner of the hammer it will dent but just barely.This is the same way the more modern cast steel anvils are that I have as well.

Post repair cooling is very important in my opinion for keeping it from cooling too fast and unevenly. As to the annealing it was never heated hot enough to get to critical temp so no annealing will occur only the potential for some tempering. I have repaired several anvils with the Stoody 1105 and 2110 (I am pretty sure of those numbers but not 100%) All of the repairs have worked well except one and it had a dead spot but It is from bad prep on my part, I didn't grind the top plate back far enough and did not notice the failure when I started welding only after cooling and grinding and then checking the rebound. As for eh slow cooling I build a three sided box out of firebrick and use Kaowool ceramic fiber insulation to wrap it up for the cooling.

[T Ritter]

I have repaired anvils too with the face or part of it missing.  I used a mig wire,  I think a 70s2  which does not deform under pressure and 965g Stoody .045 wire is similar to 1105 Stoody arc rod.  I have had success with this and the preheat and post heat are very important,  so if done correct the hard-facing does not crack

[MOblacksmith0530]

T Ritter

thanks for posting the mig wire equivalent info I have been too lazy to look it up. I don't need to now :D

[FredW]

Ken maybe should direct Paulky to the anvil repair page on the BAM website. I have an old anvil that has very banged up edges as well. I also just have a 185 amp stick welder. Is this big enough to repair the anvil with the stooby arc rod.

 

Fred

[Rich Hale]

Trivia:: Newsprint will discolor and scorch,,,turn brownish at about 400f

[MOblacksmith0530]

For those who are curious here is how NOT to repair an anvil. Proof that John Murray's forge gets plenty hot.

http://www.bamsite.org/Index/AnvilRepair.html

[Dan C]

I have a 200 lb PW in good working condition.  There are a couple of gouges on the heel and a 1/8" divot where it looks like someone did a c-shaped weld repair.  I generally avoid these areas when forging, but wondered about using Robb Gunther's repair method.  Would you use the Stoody 1105 after grinding to fresh metal, assuming the fill is 3 passes or less?  I don't think my anvil has areas that would need to be built up.

 

My anvil's edges have some mushroomed areas but no chipping.  I've searched this forum and the recommendation seems to be to lightly grind & dress the edges.  The other common recommendation is to work the anvil as is and make a forging hardy.  Stupid question, but is there a reason that you can't reshape a slightly mushroomed edge by moderate hammering from the side cold with a 2 lb or smaller hammer, or would the only way to do something like this require bringing it up to forging heat then reshape the edges, all of which would then require heat treating the entire anvil face? I read that long ago anvil companies once offered this service.

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

I'd preheat enough to keep the moisture out of the weld joint... use temp sticks (300- degrees) for the area around the weld in check (face). Remember the HAZ will heat up the anvil as well. I'd keep the area you don't want to heat up as cool as possible within that 300-400 degrees, I used a wet t-shirt to keep it cooled.

 

 

I've been researching this a great lot as of late. 7018 is very soft, TOO SOFT!, even after peening as mentioned above. I've done it on two anvils as of last week and the results were meh at best... A ball bearing rebound test gives me 20% at best and it marks up the weld... Luckily these areas are in the heel and don't see any heavy usage.

 

My next attempt will be with 10018 rod, and then 11018... These rods yield better impact resistance based on the manufacturer's write up specs, and their designed for welding tool steels like the ones used in anvil manufacturing, but in reality everything I've mentioned (7018, 10018, and 11018) are all Mild Steel.

 

After the above mentioned, I'll experiment with the gunther method... There has to be other secret methods out there...

[CleetisMorgan]

Pulsepush--I'm looking for my next fixer, and would love to try 7018 with a cap of McKay Hardalloy 600. Do you have any experience with it? I use it around the farm and it seems to have good impact resistance.

[David Gaddis]

Finally some of the people here are confessing about the softness of 7018 welding rods on the anvil. and there will be very little difference better with 10018 or 11018. yes they are strong welding rods if you are working on items requiring that treatment, but folks the anvil is not that item.

 

Mr Gunther has published a proceedure that works well. It is an accepted proceedure. You can substitute welding rods from a few other companies (Using DDG and BBG rods).

 

Repeatedly you will see that welders have ruined more anvils than all the blacksmiths, except maybe machinist. It will be really difficult for me to weld up another anvil with 7018, 10018, or 11018. It is just too soft to hold up. It does however look like the original metal. Some are are using stainless steel on their repairs...and that leaves a silvery white  top. IMHO ugly ...bad ugly.

 

 

Carry on

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

Pulsepush--I'm looking for my next fixer, and would love to try 7018 with a cap of McKay Hardalloy 600. Do you have any experience with it? I use it around the farm and it seems to have good impact resistance.

 

I have not tried, nor have I looked into Mckay Hardalloy 600... I'm going to be investing a lot of time, money, and research into these techniques, and possibly try out a few others. All in effort of seeking the good, better, and best in regards to method. I'm also looking to get a tig setup for minor face blemishes...

 

From my understanding a lot of these anvils, as a result of hardening, the edges are almost always harder than the meat of the face because the steel cools faster away from the mass. So if the edges are built up with a strong electrode, and it's impact resistant, it should be a good match for a build up on edges... The face is likely a different monster...

[Dan C]

Seems like Mr. Gunther's method has been the most tested, why would you not stick with what's known to work?  Still I have questions about using that method.  Would you use the Stoody 1105 directly after grinding to fresh metal and preheating, assuming the fill would be 3 passes or less?  I don't think my anvil has areas that would need to be built up.   It's in pretty good shape minus a 1/8" divot in the center of the face and two gouges in the heel, as can be seen in the picture above.  You can also see someone else's welding repair which is c-shaped.

 

Then is there a reason that you can't reshape a slightly mushroomed edge by moderate hammering from the side cold with a 2 lb or smaller hammer and maybe minimize the amount of steel you are going to grind and dress?

[cavala]

I'd preheat enough to keep the moisture out of the weld joint... use temp sticks (300- degrees) for the area around the weld in check (face). Remember the HAZ will heat up the anvil as well. I'd keep the area you don't want to heat up as cool as possible within that 300-400 degrees, I used a wet t-shirt to keep it cooled...

Correct me if I'm wrong but preheating is to increase the HAZ and slow the cooling process, why would you want to speed up the cooling?

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

Correct me if I'm wrong but preheating is to increase the HAZ and slow the cooling process, why would you want to speed up the cooling?

 

**** I'm far from an expert, but I'll further explain my reasoning...

 

Say you have a useable portion of the anvil that isn't damaged... In my specific case If you have a near mint useable portion of of the face, and one edge is heavily damaged running along the entirety of the face... I want to build up the edge without taking the temper out of the usable face... So the t-shirt in a way enables you to keep the usable face cool and under the critical region of the possibility of annealing the hardened steel.

 

By my understanding, preheating the anvil allows for a better weld deposite, eliminates moisture contamination, and is a preventative measure when it comes to HAZ cracking. I'd leave it up to the mass of the anvil to post heat, wrapping it in kaowool to further the post heat if need be... The balancing act of manipulating the form without manipulating its existing function..

 

Hopefully a more knowledgable source can shed a bit more light on my vague understanding on why it's necessary, but the above mentioned is my layman's understanding.

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

oh, and the reasoning behind post heat is to alleviate the stresses caused by the weld deposit. In a way it's similar to annealing, but on a much more controlled scale shy of temperatures that would have any effect on annealing the plate. From the past threads I've been privileged to read, If you preheat the anvil accordingly, post heat can be carried out by the mass of the anvil...

[cavala]

**** I'm far from an expert, but I'll further explain my reasoning...
 
Say you have a useable portion of the anvil that isn't damaged... In my specific case If you have a near mint useable portion of of the face, and one edge is heavily damaged running along the entirety of the face... I want to build up the edge without taking the temper out of the usable face... So the t-shirt in a way enables you to keep the usable face cool and under the critical region of the possibility of annealing the hardened steel.
 
By my understanding, preheating the anvil allows for a better weld deposite, eliminates moisture contamination, and is a preventative measure when it comes to HAZ cracking. I'd leave it up to the mass of the anvil to post heat, wrapping it in kaowool to further the post heat if need be... The balancing act of manipulating the form without manipulating its existing function..
 
Hopefully a more knowledgable source can shed a bit more light on my vague understanding on why it's necessary, but the above mentioned is my layman's understanding.

If you got near mint edges you should use them. The low-hy rods you mentioned are good I've used them a lot but i dont think you're gonna get what you want out of them. As for the T-shirts you're wasting your time, I actually chuckled when I read it.

[Pulsepushthepopulace]

If you got near mint edges you should use them. The low-hy rods you mentioned are good I've used them a lot but i dont think you're gonna get what you want out of them. As for the T-shirts you're wasting your time, I actually chuckled when I read it.

 

 

So the evaporation of water doesn't help when it comes to keeping the face cool? It seemed to keep the face of the 60 pound Columbia I was welding on last week in control? Granted they were sigle passes on the edge, there was no loss of hardness in the adjacent area of face... maybe the small mass had something to do with the result?

 

The 10018 will suffice as good build up if anything. The guy at airgas mentioned that it had impact resistant properties... The gunther method has had satisfactory results, but I've got a feeling there are more methods out there that yield comparable results... Re-inventing the wheel, or a new way to skin a cat, whatever you want to call it... 

[eric sprado]

Bill Apple over at Northwest Blacksmith Association site has repaired more anvils than anybody I've EVER heard of. Has has brought them to our conferences for twenty years and sold them. NEVER a return. He uses MG710 rod. Bill has said many times on the site to call him at 360 710 2248 and he will help anybody with their project. Call him!!!