Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Well let me start by saying I am new to the site and blade smithing but do have a descent amount of knowledge about knifes. my Question is I'm trying to find out what is the best steel to use? Let me explain what I'm looking for. I want to one day make a knife out of the steel that will take the Absolute finest edge and have descent edge Retention in a slicing knife. I don't want my current skill level and cost to limit me because this is one of my goals I want to work up to. I have Multiple knifes in white paper steel and blue super steel but want something more. I have a billet of cowery x steel and was looking at Zdp 189 but I can't find a Supplier for it. I'm also wanting a steel that can take a Rc 68 plus if anyone can help me with this or point me in the right Direction I would really Appreciate it thAnk you for your time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Welcome to IFI. Read the knife making stickies. There is a huge database of knowledge here, and most of your questions have been answered already. What are your abilities? How long have you been forging? Do you understand the thermal cycling process? You can know a thousand things about knives and not have a clue about how they are made. What will the knife be used for? There are hundreds of different knife designs for at least as many tasks. Please don't be put off, but bladesmithing is a difficult and demanding skill. Everyone here likes to see other members flourish, but smiths can be blunt at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thank this is a really good site from what I see so far. I have been reading little bit by little for a few hours I just have not seen anything about what I asked yet but I am going to Continue to read them. My skill are limited at the moment but I am work on this at this time I have not been forging long enought to even talk about. thermal cycling process if you are talking about annealing quenching and temping I have a descent understating of it. I agree a 100% I have a strong under standing about a lot of and a frim understanding of the knife making process from forge welding tempering and ex A slicing knife to be Exact Japanese Yanagi-ba Double Bevel I work in the plant I'm use to blunt Again I asked this because what the find the best steel for what I want to set a goal for my self Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 There is an two schools of thought about starting to forge with blade projects. Some smiths here will tell you to start with simple things like pokers, leaf keychains, and s-hooks to build your skills. Others will say try it, and learn as you go. It is your decision. Steels that are known for hardness (edge retention) are usually high-carbon, like 1095, 01 and W2. However, due to their hardness, they are more difficult to forge than a tougher, lower-carbon steel. Another option might be stock removal. Stock removal is less efficient than hot forging, but you probably have more experience with that particular technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 I am working with a smith in my area he is teaching me some of the basic skill of forging steel plus what I learn on my own next year I have plans to take a blade smithing class with Murray carter and the question was asked because after all that I want to have a steel in mind to try to work up to I plain to put my time in lone befor trying this that's why I said I don't want skill level and cost to limit the steel talked about to my under standing cowery x and Zdp 189 are very hard steels to work but the take a crazy sharp edge that is the kind of steel I'm looking at ( high speed steel or very high carbon steel ) not the typical 1085 or so forth Thank you Ps I'm in no way trying to be rude if I come off that way sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Some steels are simply not forge-able due to their metallurgy, and some are only forge-able by experts. Heat treatment is a whole 'nother issue. Dr. Jim Hrisoulas has written a series of books with tables of steels that he has used, and recommendations for each one. http://atar.com/joomla/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 When you get into some of the more complex alloys heat treating becomes an issue to get the most out of your steel. For most smiths the most exotic stuff we can work with is 52100 carbon steel. When the alloy content goes higher complex heat treating equipment/procedures are necessary to get everything out of the steel. When you get into the HS steels the difficulty just increases more and forging is next to impossible. As far as the best, look into the CPM steels and find a good heat treater that cryo-treats. I think you'll be surprised at what a properly exicuted blade made from even as low an alloy as 5160 is capable of when it comes to edge sharpness/holding. The best steel, poorly exicuted won't perform as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 HSS steels will need fancy and expensive heat treat equipment as well as fancy and expensive forging to get the best out of them. You do know that hardness and brittleness are strongly correlated so do you want the blade with the ultimate sharpness and edge retention that shatters like glass when dropped? There are some ways to help with that issue---like San Mai or applied edges; but again the High alloy steels can be a pain to work with. 1 years seems an awfully short time to work up to high alloy steels without a mentor working with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 For starter.Let me suggest youi review the just posted log of wot we covered in the knife chat wednesday pm. it is in knife forums under getting started. And join us next week for the continuation of this series. As thomas said a year is a bit short. I think if yoiu were to work over forty hours a week with one on one instrution in a well equiped shop you could possibly get where you want to go in a year or three. Think about learning to run marathons if you had not learned to walk yet? This site has alot of information...Welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 John thank you I will take a look at the books I know this is a very high goal to set for my self but that's just me anything worth doing is worth trying your best . Jm. Thank you for your comment the cpm like Rex 121 is what I'm looking for. "the white deer so to speak ". The knife that once done properly is just amazing. as far as heat treating does anyone know what the diffidence is it just a small temp range to quench and temper in or the high and coldness of the heat temp. As far a small window I have very Accurate measurement equipment for pressure level flow temp and ph that's what I do for a living i work on measurement equipment in the plants So the small window does worry me that much because the equipment I have can give with in a .25 of a deg F. I have no plans to try this until my skill are to the level they need to be but when I do I want to be pushing to learn the best of the best there is for what I'm wanting it for thank you all for the comments and any more info would be much Appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 Thomas it is but to do something you most test your Progress on something that is very Challenging that's how you push your self in my eyes if I was just making knifes out of cheap easy to work steel I would one day get bored with it if there is something to push me to get better i would stay at it much longer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 2, 2012 Author Share Posted November 2, 2012 As stated in my first post IDONT WANT SKILL LEVEL AND COST to limit me I am simple trying to find the what the best steel for what was stated. that can be used For Laminated and homogenous blade and one alone time from now I may try to make a blade from it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 OK start sourcing an inert atmosphere heat treating furnace with computerized controllers as most of the HSS have very exacting rates of temperature change over time requirements---you won't be able to handle it with a thermocouple and manual regulation. With some of the HSS very small differences can make the difference between success and scrap metal. Get real good forging regular steels, reading the temps, great hammer control, *patience*, mad skills in moving metal around. Then pick an alloy and read up on it's forging and heat treating requirements; when you can say "no problem" I can hold those values while working it---go out and buy some! Good Luck! (and have you thought about something like D2 rather than HSS? I've forged a bunch of D2 and had it heat treated by pro's!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metal99 Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 I would stay away from HSS steel for a number of reasons. From the little I have read about HSS it's not worth the trouble to try and make a blade from it. High speed steel is alloyed to stay hard when hot hence the "high speed" part. Drill bits are HSS and the way they are heat treated they are barely hard enough to make a good blade but they stay hard at a higher temp then normal "boring" steel. Another steel you mentioned was a "very high carbon steel" when it comes to knife making on a realistic level anything over 0.6% carbon is getting high enough. I would say in the knife making world 1095 would be your "very high carbon steel" and it won't give you a much better blade then 1084 or 1075. There's a point that carbon content doesn't matter any more as far as blade performance goes. A properly heat treated 1084, 1095, 5160 blade (any lots more) will out perform almost any of the "super steels" as far as toughness and cutting go. The only things that the other steels have going for them are a little better abrasion resistance and of course the corrosion factor. Some of the "best" Japanese blades out there are simple "high carbon steel" I have been a knife but since I was a child and I always wanted the "best blades" I could get. I've owned a lot of knives from the cheapest to some very pricy blades. One thing to think about is this. A company like say spyderco has to warranty their stuff. The steels they use are very good BUT they are simply not the best because of the warranty factor. They are not going to sell a product designed to have the ultimate in edge retention because it would be brittle. Make some "boring" carbon steel blades and heat treat them properly you will be amazed. A well made hand made knife will (in my books) always perform very well. Why do you want a rc68 hardness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Have you looked into 52100, often found in ball bearings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 8, 2012 Share Posted November 8, 2012 Assuming you are not a troll, start with simple 10XX series, learn to move metal, and then learn to make a blade. if you do ok then move up to other steels, One can not learn to drive in the INDY 500, so get your head out of the clouds, and start at the beginning, and you will have a much better chance of actually making a blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 " 1 years seems an awfully short time to work up to high alloy steels without a mentor working with you." However , if you insist on higher levels of Steel to work with then you really should read the Knife making thread and a few other sites of the folks have on here at the bottom of the signatures they have links to their Forging sites , ( Yet they do link IFI as a reference site as well ) so the ability you seek is on here . or you know more then you are acting like you know , Folks here will help you but you must help yourself as well . complex Damascus is not a beginners level nor is it encouraged to do so , a single steel is best then after you master it move on to a 2 bar forge and the many ways of making it (also in the knife files ) Good luck and happy reading and Education. by the way get the 50 dollar knife shop book ! Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 So what you are really looking for is a sort of Holy Grail steel to dream about. I think you are going to find that such a thing is fantasy. I once made a blade that could cut wood for months between sharpenings and yet never chipped or broke. It is the sort of legendary blade that you seek but it had very humble origins. I made it quite a few years ago from steel that I salvaged from a used hollow ground planer blade for a skillsaw. Today I think that such steel is likely 1080 or so with a bit of silica to add abrasion resistance. I had few skills (compared to my current skill set) then but took plenty of time with it. To this day I have not equalled such outstanding performance in any of my more recent carving blades and I really do not expect that I will again! No other edge that I have ever encountered from ANY source could be favorably compared with that knife! This is what the guys mean about EXECUTION! A fairly ordinary steel can turn to GOLD and stunningly expensive steels can be nothing but expensive lessons! A skilled maker will consistently get quality blades from his favorite steels. Those few blades that seem simply MAGICAL are RARE and never produced in quantity! The type of steel and their Rockwell ratings are engineering specs... they have little relevance to the production of such legendary blades. We do our very best and then we accept excellence... we hope and dream of the MAGIC perfection that is elusive and RARE! If you seek to make such a blade I can only advise you to make MANY blades and to do so with the utmost care... you may be lucky enough to produce one or even a few that you will be content with! Rockwell hardness is only a crude indicator of potential blade performance... the real test is to use a blade as it was intended to be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Dont forget Rockwell testors are not very accurate in such thin sections as a knife blade, Just a FYI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 17, 2012 Author Share Posted November 17, 2012 Thomas powers thank you I'm going to start doing some research in to that and see about maybe sending it off to get it done correctly by someone with the proper Equipment and Knowledge to do so if I can. guys I think I should say that I want to try this after a year or so once iv completed many blades and taken some classes. But I do know that I most Likely will fail at it many times before I can make a single blade out it if ever. So please don't think I'm being cocky if I am coming off that way i am really not that way I'm a very Analytical person and try to push my self to do the best I can at this I just want to learn and help anyone that I can with stuff that I know about. part of this Topic came from the fact that I'm a Chemical Engineering major and while I'm In school the things I learn from here my Professors can help me under stand the Metallurgy side of it better p. Iv loved knifes and thing of that Nature sense I was a child iv always wanted to learn about black smithing I think it is amazing how y'all can take fire iron Anvil and hammer and make so many thing I'm Fascinated by the old way of doing thing and the new. I in no way think this will be easy Or possible to do anytime soon. Thomas finding that steel to read up on and study is why I posted this I was looking as cowry x it has a make up of. C: 3.00; V: 0.30; Cr: 20.00; Mo: 1.00; iv seen some things online about how great of a kitchen knife it makes and was just seeing if there was anything better before really started to dig deep into it and find out later there is a better steel. I don't know much about D2 other than i found this is the make up C: 1.50-1.60; V: 0.90-1.10; Cr: 11.50-12.00; Mo: 0.60-0.90; Mn: 0.15-0.45; P: 0.03; S: 0.03; Si: 0.10-0.40; witch it looks like would be a good steel as well thank you for that info I'm going to Start reading more in to it. Metal99 thank you for your response please correct me if I'm wrong I'm more alone the lines asking than stating fact! but can't hss like Rex 121 get up to like a 72 Rc if the high Thermal cycling Is done properly ? Ok as far as the very high carbon that's was asked because of the cowry x having 3 % carbon as for the .6 % I don't know much about that because I don't own many knifes that are not over 1% C I have like 15 knife made of white 1 witch have 1.25-1.35 C and blue super witch has 1.40-1.50 witch are all Japanese knifes as far as Toughness that's not what I'm looking for I'm looking for edge Retention and the Ability to take a Extremely fine edge that will be used to cut sushi. Or Tomatoes for ex. I agree with you complete about what you said about mass Production knifes like Spyderco they really can't make one because of the Warranty. Issue with it. I did see that there are making Or made a knife about of Zdp-189 witch has a 3% C I want to buy one to try it out. I think I should state that I am aware that Probably the number one cause of blades chipping is Improper blade. Geometry and Misuse I think most will agree with that. if I came off rude by any of that my Apologies I mean so be. Polite in most of what I write but can come wrong "on paper " oh and most of my knifes are in the ball park of 66-68 Rc that's why I'm looking for that and yea I just order some Monday next week going to order some 1085 to start working with. Thanks again Thomas Steve will you please inform me how anything I have asked could be Confused with me being a troll? I plan to start with scarp steel the. Move up too 10** steel that once I am At a Respectable level with that steel I want to move up to a little more Difficult steel then work up too hss steel or what whatever steel I find. So please tell me how my head is in the clouds as well ? I am starting at the Beginning asking a Question about something for in the Future is not skipping the beginning ! As far as making a blade I'm going to Practice learning some of the skills Tom. Steve thank for your response I'm not be Sarcastic ether I know you mean well you just must have Misunderstood what or why I was asking what I did Samcro. Yes it is and I understand that. I'm not thinking I will be able to I want to do it to see how far short I fall Probably a lot but I think if would be a good metering tool to see how close or far I'm getting over the years do you understand we're I'm coming from? I do know more that I act like I do. but I have never made a complete blade in my life I'm going to start one Tom hopefully. I didnt and don't want to come off Arrogant. I ask the question because I didn't know but I wanted to ask humbly. I spend most of my free time watching videos on forging and reading on forging I'm trying to learn this the best I can't I'm not like most people my age as I'm not in to Video game and stuff. I was raised around Cattle and grown up in the country this kind of stuff is my video games so to speak. I'm very much willing to help my self I devote most of my free time to trying to learn I'm reading the art of black smithing by Alex bealer right now ill pick up the book you. Mention next thank you for that I hope y'all understand we're I'm coming from Bigfootnampa I'm not looking for some holy steel just the best steel for the task I want to use it for a Extremely sharp Slicing knife that can hold a edge cutting soft Medium but I under and Totally respect what you said a Properly make knife will out Preform Any knife Regardless of steel if that knife is not made properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 17, 2012 Share Posted November 17, 2012 I am certainly not speaking for Steve on this,,,just for me: The thought of a troll certainly crossed my mind the minute you said you did not want skill level or cost to get in the way of you obtaining wot you wish. And that wish is certainly not a thing you will acheive in an instant. The thought was bolstered when you have not even considered my thoughts that you follow along on what we are offering in t he knife chat series. This has not been offered anywhere on line that I know of. And it will only be of value to those folks that get into the shop and at least attempt some of the very basics we are offering. If you are truly interested I would expect you to have done more than type, in your quest to find the "best" knife steel. And of course I do wonder about the answers you received from your "mentor" Hiistorically on this site we see folks pop in here quite often that have lots of dreams and some rather wild thoights about methods or materials that they wish to use and almost always want to by pass the early work it takes to get to a level of merely good, let alone really well rounded crafsmen. And if you are trully going to invest your time in learning I have a strong suspicion you may even see why Steve and I have to wonder about you. A bladesmith working with even the simple 10xx steels can produce a marvelouis blade that will simply be more than capable of doing things that are asked of it. And of course how it is heat treated to again match its use in its future. These abilites known to a maker allow the user to end up with a knife that matches the new owners desires. These items are wot makes a custom knife work when "off the rack" knives do not measure up. Lastly if you are truly seeking this knowledge fill us in on wot you have done in obtaining the equipment you will need.Knife chat is showing how blades can be forged with not only the proper equipment but doing it with bare minimums as well. And of course if you and your "mentor" are making progress post a couple of pics of things you have made so we can follow along as you develop and grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 20, 2012 Author Share Posted November 20, 2012 Rich hale I believe what is happing is you and Steve and most others miss under stood what I said! if you look closely I said " i don't want my current skill level and cost to limit me because this is one of my goals I want to work up to."Infer-sizing strongly on work up to!!! I put that in there so that when someone asked me about my skill level and I told them that I had very little Experience Actually making a blade, but i have very strong under standing of what goes in to the making of a blade. That I didn't just end up with a form of ppl telling me something that I already know " I'm not ready " I hoped by being honest and tell ppl that I just wanted to work up to it one day. that I would get honest Opinions on what hss or very high carbon steel that I should one day shoot for.. As far as 10## steel I agree that a good blade can be made from it for that use if made correctly and heat treated correctly but would a blade of Zdp-189 , cowry X or Rex 121 out preform it. if made correctly and heat treated correctly what is your Opinion on this I do not own anything at this time but I have Access muipli type of blacksmith hammers and tools such as tongs two anvils gas and coal forge and a power hammer. I would love to post a few and see what all think but can someone please tell me how to from a iPhone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 The steels you list are most likely proprietary steels and if so they would nto be something you could obtain...i most certainly did read and understand wot yoiu stated just about everytime you post anything here...And for now I will say your level of skill will stay right where it is now, as you seem to spend more time typing than pounding. See like you, i have a right to my opinion as wwell as you.. My offer to change my mind on whether you are a troll is still open..Describe,,or better yet post pics of wot you have done since you first posted this in this forum. This is even a stronger thought now that I know you have at least access to tools that you could have done something with...Ball in youir court,,dribble shoot or wotever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abcd Posted November 21, 2012 Author Share Posted November 21, 2012 This is my first attempted at making a hand forged blade it is rough forge to shape I still have to grid it to the final shape and grind in the sec and Primary edge befor starting to harden sorry for the delay I just figured out how to post pic from my phone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted November 25, 2012 Share Posted November 25, 2012 I understand what Jpen is looking for, just advice on the best steel for a kitchen knife. The forums on Chow.com are full of knife knerds discussing the merits of all of the new wonder steels being used, ones with 3 points of carbon , etc.. I have no personl knowledge of these steels, but you may try some of the knife forums like British blades, etc. Good luck with your project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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