Designing & stages

[Joel OF]

Hi folks, does anyone have any tips for helping with designing simple work? I'm pretty good at visualising an end product but i can't see the stages, which is quite frustrating.

E.g i can visualize a stylish bowl made from a square piece of sheet steel, but i can't see the stages...so i started to make it out a piece of card & as i started to fold it i immediately encoutered problems i never thought of.

[John B]

Card is not suitable, try using modelling clay or plasticine which behaves similarly to hot metal without the danger of burning yourself.

[rockstar.esq]

Kurgan,

I can commiserate. The knowledge of how to proceed through the project is as much of a barrier as developing the skill to execute it. I don't know where you're at in the scheme of things but I've found a couple of things quite helpful. One is the Anvilfire tutorials. Even if you don't want to make the project it is very instructive to see how the work progresses. The closest analogy I have is snooker, you must move with the next play in mind.

A great example is knife forging where a pre-form precedes the bevel forging. When a bevel is forged on one side of a flat bar, the edge is lengthened bringing the tip up. The thickness of the metal, the length of the bar, and the degree of taper will all coincide to bring the tip upwards to varying degrees. If for example the intention is to end with a flat spine from tip to haft, the pre-form would be made like an upside down blade. As the bevel is forged, it will straighten out.

Watching an experienced smith demonstrate can be very helpful.

[Joel OF]

Cheers fellas.
John - i'll get down the art shop quick smart. I need all the help i can get.
Rockstar - what you said about barriers couldn't be truer for me! I'm a complete novice and though i'm naturally co-ordinated (so once i've figured out how i have to form the shapes i'm finding it relatively easy to achieve what i want) it's seeing the stages i'm struggling with. It's made all the worse by my Dad being an architect who can "see" everything every step of the way, which just rubs it in!

I'm sure i'll learn with time & it'll become second nature but any aides to learning are an added bonus.

[Lee Pickard]

The design process is simple :) research, analiyse, design, develop, sample and model, access any needed changes as a result of sampling and modelling then make!! And enjoy! I hope this is off some use :)

[Lee Pickard]

And yeah usiing a hammer and forge tools along with plastercine is a easy way to see what will happen if you do certain things to hot steel its a quick easy way to test ideas and go through stages of production an overcome obsticles in the making process

[MOblacksmith0530]

All the above are good ideas, I have used most of them at one time or another. One thing I didn't seem mentioned as clearly as I would have said it is to actually play with metal, fire, and hammer. You need to heat a piece up and hit it with a hammer and see what happens, then hit it a different way or on a different part of the anvil and see what happens. you need to get a feel for what will happen and take it in steps. I often will make a mini version of what I envision (or attempt to) to see if my thought processes are in line with what I want to do. My shop is littered with test pieces to try out an idea.

[Joel OF]

0530 - i know you're not suggesting that i'm looking for shortcuts but what you said about actually having a hit on the anvil to learn made me think i should clarify that i'm not looking for shortcuts...i need secondary aides as i live about an hours drive away from my parents house where my setup is so i only get a couple evenings a week on it so progress is slow.

If i can be designing pieces at home in my flat, when i go to my parents place hopefully i'll be loosing less time to misplaced hits that have to be undone & redone.

[John B]

Some basic forging techniques learnt from an experienced tutor should give you some idea as to how hot metal perfoms/deforms,

If you then sketch/draw what you are thinking of making, you can question at each stage of your drawing what it takes to get there, and try to figure it out for yourself, or if you have a problem then you could email your tutor a scanned copy of your proposals and ask for their comments.

Providing your tutor is amenable to this process, it has worked well in the past for our students, check on "aftercare" from wherever you decide to go if you want to take that route, not all colleges and classes are prepared to do this .

There is no substitute for the hands on experience learning curve, but it can be speeded up with a properly formatted training course/programme.

Good luck, have fun and enjoy

[Lee Pickard]

get some plastercine and hit it with a hammer in your flat, it behaves in the same way hot metal will just is a alot quicker and requires less force. when i was doing my degree in artist blacksmithing i had a block of plastercine and always every night when i wasnt at the forge or needed to clarify something in my head or figure something out i used a small hammer or big dont matter and plastercine and it was invaluable!

an the good thing is you can take plastercine anywhere an mess around always learning :)

[ThomasPowers]

Blacksmithing can be like jazz; you need to practice the basics until your mind can start with a basic theme and play a riff on it.

I often doodle at meetings starting with a shape and going thought the intermediate steps till I get what I want---but I have the experience to know *how* that shape will change with hammering for each step.

[rockstar.esq]

Building on Thomas' comment, a musical scale can be defined as a set of notes you can play that will sound good together. It can also be defined as a much smaller set of notes that won't sound good. If imposed on the piano, there might only be a dozen or so keys you can'l play. For me there's greater flexibility when I have to remember fewer things.

Relating to blacksmithing there are processes to move metal from one general shape to another but that doesn't mean it's easy.

Here are a few examples:
Upsetting thin stock.
Hot Cutting (no saws, grinders, etc) without support for the piece
Working metal that's too heavy to easily move on your own.

Looking through the Anvilfire series you'll see lots of examples of where some unsightly blob is right in the middle of things. Eventually, that blob becomes the stock for forming a detail that would have been in the way for the earlier operations.

I would suggest that you take a particular genre of blacksmithing and watch you tube videos of people doing it. I wanted to make tomahawks. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQaaS71yfvM shows the entire process. I very quickly learned that I'd be spending the foreseeable future making the various top and bottom tools that Jim used in that video. Making tools to make stuff is a serious setback to someone just starting out. It's also instructive to note that the reason they used so many tools, was to avoid an awkward operation. Things unfold smoothly and progress is easy to see. Notice how the work looks NOTHING like an axe for quite a while. Ask yourself why they progressed the way they did working your way backwards.

The clay suggestion is a good one. I might add that you may consider making a model of what you want with the clay using whatever method it takes (fingers, trowels, whatever). Once you've got it finished, consider how you'd get it back into the same shape as your stock only this time using your hammer, anvil, and tongs.

Making several models will give you the ability to stop along the way so you're not starting from scratch.

Once you've found a solution. Start with a piece of clay shaped like your stock and using the hammer, tongs, and anvil- make your model.

I think the exercise will teach you what you want to learn. Also, posting some pictures of your clay model will give experienced smiths something to visualize what you're attempting to do.

[John McPherson]

Sam Yellin said that a blacksmith should always be sketching on paper or modelling in clay when not at the forge, that it was never wasted time. My guess is, it keeps the mind/hand synergy going.


Blacksmithing is a constant volume process, as is sculpting in clay. Building with wood and welding/fabricating is additive, carving in wood or stone is subtractive. The mind must wrap itself around the process.

And apparently, someone has written a pamphlet about the process: How to Teach Yourself Blacksmithing with Clay [Paperback] Don A. Meador (Author, Illustrator) I have not seen it myself.

Google can be your friend, Amazon and others sell this title, so you may be able to get it from your local blacksmith group library (you have joined, haven't you?), or thru Inter-Library Loan. (Libraries & print, so last millennia, but still there when all your digital media is obsolete or unrecoverable. And the price is right!)

[bigfootnampa]

The "Blacksmith's Manual" by J W Lillico is just filled with step by step drawings of forging designs. I am putting up a link to a PDF version but I will also suggest that you get a printed copy and study it often. It is mostly industrial forgings but the visual tutoring of seeing where the complex shapes are derived from bars and rods of metal is very useful. This is more of an inspirational resource than a how to manual for me. I think it has been my most helpful blacksmithing book!

http://www.fpga-faq.org/sb-metal_hold/CD_12/BLACKSMITHS%20MANUAL%20ILLUSTRATED_tcm2-18917.pdf

[Frosty]

Developing a series of steps to reach a goal is a must. I call it a progression sometimes something else I can't recall at the moment, depending on who and where I'm talking about it.

I haven't read any bad tips so far, a couple ho-hummers but no bad ones. Have you asked your Dad how he develops a design? Architecture is different sure but the mental process will have parallels you can use. I don't know how you get along but it's a rare Father who isn't pretty proud and delighted to help his son.

I do most of my design with CADD here at this keyboard or on graph paper. I prefer pencil and graph paper as it's more tactile and forging is tactile. I don't know if that parallel has any meaning outside my own head but it works for me. What I really like about graph paper or "quadrile ruled" is how easy it is to scale things. For instance I can sketch a fence and gate 50' long and it's scaled for construction, I can take the sketch into the shop and use it as a construction drawing. If I need to be picky a simple coordinate transfer to whatever size I need, chalk on the floor is a favorite. Then I can lay the work out and get it exact.

Okay, that's sketches and drawings, it really helps that I went through 6 semesters of drafting in middle and high school and spent a couple years as a professional draftsman. Nothing beats a paycheck depending on a skill to hone it. Oh yeah, Dad insisted I be able to read a blueprint and later draw one but that was while I was still in grade school. Wow, have I written about Dad today?!

Sequencing a project is going to be a matter of experience and modeling. Clay is modeling and can't be beat you can do it anywhere. When you use your forge tools put it in the refrigerator for a while to stiffen it up, even the stiff "plasticene" clay will get too soft in your hands. Work it step by step doing only what your tools can do. Even by hand this is very helpful, more so than using forge tools. After a while it becomes rare when using forge tools on clay is very helpful, you can simulate the effect of any of them with your hands. You can use different colors to develop pattern welded patterns, this is FUN.

A basic progression is to #1 Isolate zones you need to work. #2 make the smallest reductions first. Work areas from thhickest to thinnest. Do the thinnest parts last if possible because they burn off and damage easiest. A thin section like a scribe point will bend with every blow put on another area, It's literally flopping from shock.

Figuring out which zone needs to be worked first sometimes depends on what the finished form it is and that's an experience thing. Of course modeling is really helpful, making mistakes like forging yourself into a corner is SO much less aggravating in clay than it is in steel.

Without an instructor it's going to be a matter of trial and error. I suggest asking your Father because once a person reaches a certain high level of expertise all skills start to become the same. If you show him a sketch of your vision of a finished project, I call it a "concept sketch/drawing" I'm betting he'll be able to spot corners, traps and suggest logical progress. I know I'm kind of flogging that idea but . . . Maybe?

Sorry for another rambly post. It's the tree's fault!

Frosty The Lucky.

[wd&mlteach]

As the rest of these replies have indicated, in much fewer words than what is below, you need to establish experience. That can come from books, mentors, YouTube, or experimentation. Established sources are usually the best, but may be out of reach, so do what you can with what you have; be creative an innovative! Do not give up and do not be afraid to experiment, the only mistakes you do not learn from are the ones that cause dirt naps.

Below is my take on the situation if you care to read.
I teach design and production in wood and metal. What I see posted here is all good stuff. What you are finding out is that it takes some sort of knowledge and skill related to blacksmithing to really truly make the end product match your original intentions. It is the same process that engineer-type professions use to solve problems. I say engineer types because this type of problems solving is used for problems that are naturally more technical in nature but is used by far more people than just engineers, but I will refer to it as engineering anyway. The engineering approach to problem solving is usually based on prerequisite knowledge. This prerequisite knowledge helps engineers solve problems through past experiences. It is sort of like a mental toolbox, if you will. Inside this toolbox are solutions to various problems that they have solved in the past, as well as knowledge gained from educational experiences. These past experiences can be small or complex but the solutions and intelligences associated with them are there. When an engineer approaches a new problem they can look at the problem as a whole and select the best method or methods to solve that problem and reach the desired goal. It is the same approach an accomplished chess player uses to win a game. If you have ever been schooled by somebody who is really good at chess it is similar. A really good chess player can look at the game as a whole, not as a particular move. And they will try to get you to fall into one of their finishing techniques.

A novice designer or chess player on the other hand does not have those experiences or associated intelligence to draw from. When they are faced with a problem, they focus on a particular stage of the process. Once they solve that stage of the problem they can move on to the next perceived stage or problem, until the process is complete. At the end then they will often go back and review what has transpired. Once they have the full experience they can cite where the process could have been improved, because they now have a comprehension of what has transpired and how to improve it.

This is one of the greatest challenges that I face as an educator. I am in a constant battle figuring out when and how much is needed to give students so that they can successfully design. What I have found out is that if I spend too much time teaching the design aspect, the process is more experimental in nature. They just throw things together and hope that it works if it does not then they continue to try again until they are satisfied with the outcome or they are out of time. The other approach is to establish pure skill with perceived drills. This is has some merit in the beginning but kids are creative and quickly realize that this approach is stifling, hampers creativity and higher level thinking of Blooms Taxonomy. The best is a more balanced approach, supplying key knowledge and experiences in both areas and hoping they can scaffold and make connections between the knowledge groups.


If you need more information on the stages and standards associated with design Google:

International Technology Education Association and look for the Standards for Technological Literacy.

[Joel OF]

Wow, thanks for all the replies people. Too many points to address in a reply but rest assured I've taken all your points in. I'll bookmark this thread & refer back to it over time too.

[beth]

hi kurgen - thats all very good advice above, its hard when you can see in your minds eye something you want to make, i do it all the time! but have to really THINK how to achieve it, in my experience it is just that, experience, and trying it out again and again. a good place to start is a visual idea, then, trying to use the language of blacksmithing and of the material, what it likes to do and what it doesnt like to do, you can piece together a way to do it by trial and error. as time goes on the process get much simpler, because you have more and more answers in your head for various problems you find yourself encountering. you can get advice on here for actual pieces your trying to make, so like someone suggested, post a clay version and ways to skin a cat will come pouring in! you might choose to use a mixture of all the advice, that bit is up to you. good luck and post something in clay for us to see!! i use plasticine (beter than clay as it wont dry you can leave it all over the place) a lot becasue i am an idiot at maths, so if i need to know how long a piece of stock i need to do various things with, i do it all in clay first, the same diameter as what i want to use, then i hit it and move it how im going to once im into the metal, and its a very good way of working lengths and volume out in a concrete way. go for it :)

[wd&mlteach]

Here are some picutres of the design process that I teach. For my metals kids I have them make sculptures out of old spikes. I saw these characters at a craft show and I thought it would make a great project to teach Metals 1. I first started out with sketching all of the parts but high school kids nowadays do not have the same technical skill sets that kids used to have. They can all send a text faster than I can even find that section in my phone, but they absoltuley cannot sketch anything legible, becausue they do not have the skill sets to do so. I have tried to instill these skills but whatever I do is temporay as they do not use it outside of my class and it is all forgoten in a matter of weeks. So what I have done is to have them scribble some pretty sorry ideas together so I can vaguely figure out what they are doing. Then once they have proven to me that they have some sort of logical solution to the problem, I have them construct a cardboard mock-up of what it is that they paln on doing. This has proven to be very successful, first it gives them something to do with their hands and it serves as a full scale pattern for them to follow. They can easily make the parts to match the cardbaord ones and I can easily point out where the problems are.

Hope that helps, somebody.