Don't understand Damascus attraction

[Perrin Aybarra]

Let me start off by saying that I'm not trying to criticize anyone who uses damascus techniques or their work. I simply don't get it. Is there a strength benefit from using different steels in one blade? Like do you get some of the different properties of both steels? Or is it purely aesthetic? I really am trying to learn, so any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Rich Hale]

Actually this is something for you to decide on your own. You can learn alot aboiut it on this site and I suggest yoiu put some knives in youir hands made using pattern welded steels. (the common term as damasscus is really another thing) Go to gun shows, knife shows or visit dealers that have good quality knives you can look at an hold. Search the internet for makers of custom knives with pattern welded steel blades. That of couirse will oly be a visual reference. Compare pattern welded steel bladed knives with well made knves of monosteel,,, sort it out and see wot youi like.

[2Tim215]

I use 1070 and 15N20 for my Damascus or correctly known as pattern welded steel. 15N20 having basically the same composition as 1070 but with added Nickle. This in the end then becomes an aesthetically pleasing 1070 knife with a carbon content of around 0.7 - 0.8 which makes for a good knife. The more carbon the better the knife but it doesn't end there. Many aspects make up a good knife, how they are done is what turns it into an excellent knife.

So to answer your question:

Using good steels with and average high carbon content will give you a good Damascus knife yet to get a nice contrast you will need one to have a good nickel content or have less carbon. If you go for the less carbon option you end up with a blade with carbon content of the steel with the least carbon and this makes for an inferior blade. But again, it's not only carbon that makes a knife a cutting tool but also the other chemical compounds in the steel (another topic) and how you HT it. I make my own Damascus, forge steel like 52100, 5160, EN 45 and other carbon steels into blades and I also make Stainless Steel knives and can confidently state that Damascus is no special super steel but if done properly can and will make a very good to excellent knife that will perform as well as most carbon steels.

But the truth is that these days pattern welded blades are done more for there aesthetic value and saleability.

[macbruce]

I don't make Damascus but the knife I use for hunting us basicly a utility blade made by a friend. I can field dress and skin a deer and still shave hair off my arm afterwards...... ;) ....

[yesteryearforge]

:)

[Rhettbarnhart]

what about damascus japanese swords that were supposed to be extremely hard?

[Woody]

I make 'em because I like 'em and they sell for more money. Besides that, everybody knows that if you get the mix right and heat treat the Damascus blade properly it will cut the barrel off a machine gun and still be sharp enough to shave with.

what about damascus japanese swords that were supposed to be extremely hard?

The perfect blade is a delecate balance between hardness and flexability. With extreme hardness comes excellent edge holding properties but also extreme brittleness. If the blade is to brittle it will break or chip easily, that is why we temper blades to remove some of the brittleness but still leave the blade hard enough to hold an edge and to obtain a degree of flexability. I think that if you check a Japanese Sword you will find that only the cutting edge is extremely hard the spine is considerably softer due to the heat treating process used. From the demos I have seen on TV the blades were also very flexible.

[Rhettbarnhart]

wouldnt the cutting edge break?

[Maillemaker]

The katana (or samurai sword) was differentially tempered, with a blade that was hard enough to retain its edge, and a spine left soft to be flexible. Generally, these swords were used for personal duels, and rarely were they used against fully armored opponents.

Also, the combat techniques of the samurai were more fluid slicing, slashing motions, rather than a hack or a chop. Less shock for the blade.

[Rhettbarnhart]

ok thanks for the info

[Steve Sells]

Damascus is pretty thats it.

[Perrin Aybarra]

Were katanas really damascus? The way I understood, the real strength comes from the differential heat treatment, soft core, and clays that were used in the process.

[Hayden H]

I think truly swords started out as multiple peices of iron wootz(?) forged together into what could be called damascus. They forged, and folded it together to get the carbon content evenly spread throughout the peice of steel. Atleast thats what I gathered from my metallurgical/knife books. I think what I typed is actually a semi-quote from Wayne Goddard

This is what I understood, I am probably somewhat right, but for the most part wrong.

Edited August 26, 2012 by Hayden H

[Steve Sells]

Wootz/Bulat is a crucible steel. I am not awarte of folding with that.
Pattern welding is layers strips/chunks forge welded into one.
Japanese uses Tamahagane which is a bloomery steel, as with Wrouignt Iron needs folding to work out the crap.

[will52100]

The reason for the folding in the Japanese swords is to over come poor quality iron and to work impurities out, not to develop a pattern.

I like damascus and making it because I am infinitely more involved with the blade forging than with a straight carbon blade. Even one I've forged from large stock. Is there a performance advantage? Not that I've found. My best 52100 will out cut my best damascus, and is stronger in flex and bending test as well. Damascus can make an excellent knife, but it's not king of the hill performance wise anymore. But it sure is pretty, and fun to make and look at!

[ThomasPowers]

The Japanese sword has several problems in use. The soft back tends to take a set and straightening after use it is part of proper training. The edge does tend to break off which is why Ashi were introduced: during the hardening process you include strips of clay going all the way down to the edge to provide "stop break points" so the entire edge doesn't break off but only a section if it's abused. As mentioned katana were not battle swords but more one on one dueling swords. (Look into "The Way of the Horse and the Bow")

Spring tempered European swords are much more "flexible"; at the Army Museum in Spain they had a rapier blade bent into a spiral and embedded in a block of wood to keep it from springing back to straight---try that with a katana!