pkrankow Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 A solid fork will be darn nice to be honest. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Had a quick glance through the Lincoln Arch Welding "Proceedures" book on the way out the door this morning. mentioned chromium steels especially 40 points and up as having difficulties with HAZ cracking unless you preheat and postheat/slow cool well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 So, 1) low hydrogen electrodes, surface prep to remove contaminants. 2) heat the steel in taking into account it's mass alone can absorb heat too quickly... 3) toss in the oven @ 450F- broil 1hr for every 1" thickness involved to diffuse residual Hydrogen... Skimming the Craigslist and Ebay for another set of forks. The problem that presents itself with doing a top plate, the face of the anvil is now approximately 5.25"X12"... The current width of the blades in my tangible possession are 4" so that leaves 1/2" on each side uncovered by a top plate... Also, I had the initial intentions of hardfacing and didn't account for a top plate... If I were to use the existing material, I would lose the material for the second horn... Now I'm looking for 5 1/4" to 6" forks... 4140 top plate of lesser dimensions would run me close to +$85 shipped, so why not just get another pair of forks? + I can add feet, tooling features, etc + 100 to 200# of additional mass Waiting on some school money, so I foresee fabrication to be complete and ready for heat treatment by mid September.... Questions are many, so why not get a few more off my chest; When I have completed all of the welding, should I... A) go straight to heat treat/harden?, or... B ) should I anneal in the oven @ 450- 500 to reduce stressors and diffuse hydrogen, then heat treat/harden, then throw in oven to reduce tension??? Also, How much of a quench medium are we looking at for this, I have about 5 gallons of used motor oil saved up... Hopefully this will suffice? Is there a spec on volume to mass being quenched... The guru on anvil fire explains fabricating the anvil of creation with decorative elements of hex bar for punches, upsetting dishes, etc... Any good ideas out there? Figure nows the time to implement useful features into the lump... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 20, 2012 Share Posted August 20, 2012 BIG QUENCH TANK NEEDED! 5 Gallons way too little. Might be able to quench with water with a strong stream---like a fire hose. BTW I'll try to measure my large fork when I get home tonight IIRC it was 180 pounds for a single fork... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Think one gallon per pound minimum for quenching. This is an industry standard estimate, not just a blacksmith estimate. With this mass you are looking at water even though 4140 is considered oil quench. If you control your heat on the plate tine you may have no need to heat treat. Invest in a couple tempil sticks, one each in 400F, 450F, and 500F Your local welding supply house should stock these temperatures because they are common. If you keep the face below 500F there is likely no need to re-heat treat the face! A bearing drop test would be the final test to decide if you want to go the extra step. Anything over 50% is acceptable. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
395743 Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I can't wait to see it finished! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluidsteel Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Well. I just happen to have a 2-1/2"x6"x11-1/4" piece of a forklift tine.... e-mail me and we can figure something out if you're interested. I have a longer piece but it'd either cost more for shipping since it wouldn't fit in a priority mail box, or I'd have to cut it down to fit a priority box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 BIG QUENCH TANK NEEDED! 5 Gallons way too little. Might be able to quench with water with a strong stream---like a fire hose. BTW I'll try to measure my large fork when I get home tonight IIRC it was 180 pounds for a single fork... I wonder if this is a first "Monster" forklift anvil... It's weighing in at @ least 320 from my guestimation... What's another 300lbs ish...??? I could say something about my liking for bigger women, but I'd hate to dance on the lines of being inappropriate... I keep on telling the wife I'm 2 short of a threes...cough!!! So, oil is out... Water.... I have a pond at my disposal? It's about an acre in size 14ft deep... If I elevated 6 or so 50 gallon drums of water on some kinda pull string dump mechanism would that work? Think one gallon per pound minimum for quenching. This is an industry standard estimate, not just a blacksmith estimate. With this mass you are looking at water even though 4140 is considered oil quench. If you control your heat on the plate tine you may have no need to heat treat. Invest in a couple tempil sticks, one each in 400F, 450F, and 500F Your local welding supply house should stock these temperatures because they are common. If you keep the face below 500F there is likely no need to re-heat treat the face! A bearing drop test would be the final test to decide if you want to go the extra step. Anything over 50% is acceptable. Phil Again this seems the more logical route, I just don't know if it would be doable especially if I followed that homogenous weld thread you posted... I figure with the amount of heat generated burning through rods like that, I'd be difficult... I could always lay a bead, wait till the weld reached preheat temp, burn another rod, so on and so forth... maybe put a wet rag on the face??? I can't wait to see it finished! Niether can I. I've been researching anvils for months now, and I can't come to grips with the idea of paying the inflated prices out there, for something that's a century old as far as manufacturing technology is concerned... not knocking the reputation of older anvils, just feel that paying 4 to 5 dollars a pound is for individuals with way more money than myself.... As a student, I have these priceless commodities called time, gusto, and the desire to make things out of nothing... It's essential for a blacksmith to make his own tools, so why must he/she buy an anvil??? The material is available on the cheap, so why not? Also, this little project is intended to show other noobs, like myself, that you can fabricate a beautiful anvil, on a walmart wishes and double-wide dreams budget... Well. I just happen to have a 2-1/2"x6"x11-1/4" piece of a forklift tine.... e-mail me and we can figure something out if you're interested. I have a longer piece but it'd either cost more for shipping since it wouldn't fit in a priority mail box, or I'd have to cut it down to fit a priority box. ^ Pm'd good sir... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 Almost forgot... I put about 5 hours into the work this weekend, 1 1/4" Hardy complete square tube lipped for top plate gap... Two horns are almost cut, round horn will be almost 14" square horn on the Hardy hole side will be 7"... stupid me decided a 28 degree undercut was a good idea... So, I fought the the saw (maxes at 45 degree cuts) and the... saw won... for the most part that is... I have about 2 inches of material to rip through... The soapstone mark is NOT the horn, I was just doodling and brainstorming and got carried away...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 No a pond will not work you need PRESSURE to drive through the steam jacket that will form around the anvil when water hits it. Charles McRaven used the local volunteer fire department's high pressure hose to heat treat an anvil he re-did. You will also need *help* and custom made handling tools as you will want to heat it face down---as only the face needs to get to critical and then you will need to shift it and orient it for the quenching. Luckily something that large will take a while to cool below critical so you have time to heave it around to a different spot---if you are fast! Anvil manufacturers used water towers and large flumes---think a couple of thousand gallons suspended 30' up. If fluid steel's piece will work, it would save trying to cut mine up---Sorry I didn't get it measured last night as I got home late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 21, 2012 Author Share Posted August 21, 2012 You will also need *help* and custom made handling tools as you will want to heat it face down---as only the face needs to get to critical and then you will need to shift it and orient it for the quenching. Luckily something that large will take a while to cool below critical so you have time to heave it around to a different spot---if you are fast! Anvil manufacturers used water towers and large flumes---think a couple of thousand gallons suspended 30' up. If fluid steel's piece will work, it would save trying to cut mine up---Sorry I didn't get it measured last night as I got home late. If you notice the top pic of post #27 the fork bucket attachment hook is in the center hook facing up, same as the other side... This accomplishes that face down orientation you're talking about... So there's no real alternative... Fire Hose from Fire department... I don't see this happening... Oil... I need 300+ gallons... Errr... not happening How about a pressure washer? I own a very nice high volume honda 3500 psi IIRC... Other option is an air hardening tool steel. Or hardfacing rod.. I take it this quenching pickel is what stops most anvil diy'rs in their tracks... Time to start reviewing options... seriously... errr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unforgivun Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 Got a creek nearby? The firehose isn't a bad off as you might think. They have to do training and testing of equipment. Worst thing they can do is tell you no right? May as well stop in and talk to someone at the local dept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 A couple trash pumps could be rented. They move quite a bit of water. Since this is a large mass controlling the temperature might be easier than it sounds. Hardening would be a backup plan that you can do later. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 A couple trash pumps could be rented. They move quite a bit of water. Since this is a large mass controlling the temperature might be easier than it sounds. Hardening would be a backup plan that you can do later. Phil Actually, I spoke to my father about the "options", and found out he apparently has one hidden somewhere on the other side of the barn... 200 gallons a minute are the specs he relayed... I'll rent another one and we're in business! I'll just use the pond to feed it... I agree phil, back up plan indeed, I just have this nagging feeling that I'm not going to really be able to control the heat that well... In order to get the penetration I desire and avoid HAZ cracking, I have to preheat to nearly 400 and keep it there... One thing mentioned in HAZ cracking is that the mass will suck the heat away from the weld, so I imagine that the mass, in it's entirety, will gradually reach that preheat temp laying bead after bead... So, my fear is that once it reaches the point/temp; conditions for welding will be optimal, but heat control might become an issue... If I burn a rod under the anvil plate, when the mass is at preheat temp, where will all that radiant heat go? will It radiate into the mass or will it move too far into the top plate? Then again, I might be thinking this thing to death... It's good to have options though... :wacko: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The mass should be at the preheat temperature to start! My fork is 5" wide by 1 7/8" thick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 The mass should be at the preheat temperature to start! My fork is 5" wide by 1 7/8" thick Thanks for reiterating that point, I got lost in the sauce there... because if it wasn't, the radiant heat would migrate away from ground zero?... But once the mass is at preheat temp where will the heat migrate? to the face? Or to the waist of the anvil... This is the variable that leaves me with the thought that It's going to be quite difficult to keep the face at <500oF... I'm seriously thinking about taking you and and Mr. fluidsteel up on your offers... The dimensions of the forks you guys have given are beyond whats available locally... I would just feel bad burdening you guys with all that cutting and driving to the post office... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 The heat will conduct to where it is cooler. I expect that as you start filling under the plate you will have more problems controlling heat buildup in the plate than when the seam under the plate is mostly filled. You can cool the body and plate by spraying air and/or water on them. Be careful about cooling too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluidsteel Posted August 22, 2012 Share Posted August 22, 2012 Here's a small portion of the tine drops I have. I made a 900# anvil stand... :rolleyes: The biggest piece I have that will easily fit in a flat rate box is the one I posted dimensions of. It's the same size as the tines on the top of the stack. For size reference. The two square plates with the rusty edges are 1-1/2"x13"x13"....I'd honestly just use my big piece to make a Brian Brazeal type striking anvil... But I'm me, and you are you, right? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 22, 2012 Author Share Posted August 22, 2012 Jeebus :blink: That's a lot of steel.... Yeah, A brazeal type striking anvil would make way more sense, but I'm a bit left of plumb... :D One more question for you guys while I'm shopping for a welder, when it comes to laminating the plates together, what's the preferred method for making these individual pieces an entire solid? The "guru" show examples of laminating the plates with beveled/welded edges and plug welds.... Or can I weld the plates together in a homogeneous type weld, just like I plan to weld the top plate on...? If I prep accordingly, like jigs, spacers, layout etc.... I could see this as being the better of the 2 routes...? What say you? Almost done with all the necessary cuts... I still have about 3 days worth of grinding and fitting, grinding and fitting, and then some more grinding... Anywho, some updated photos of it mocked up... still a rough fit though, did I mention the grinding and fitting part? ...to show the progression... Middle section showing 1-1/4 hardy hole... I'm pulling the bottom center section forward for the hardy hole.. will be about a 1/2" more off center... This has evolved away from a double-horn to a heel/horn English pattern anvil, due to using every bit of the material possible... and the heel... mocked up... This is the rough overall shape of the final product... Take note that the face plate is absent, and the buildup material for the horn sits in it's place... That excess will build the horn up to be nice and robust... That's my 3# cross-peen there in the center, to give you a gist of size and scale... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ridgewayforge Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 That is looking pretty fantastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 thats looking something serious now ppp..... nice one :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think I'm going to homogeneously weld the plates together. This will give me some practice for the top plate, and make the body solid as possible. The plus side to this is I can take the pieces in and out of the oven for preheat and de-stress... Like a puzzle, I'll just take 2 out for welding at a time, so it's easier to keep them true to the dimensional tolerances... 7018 electrodes are the ticket, size is yet to be determined...I wonder how many pounds I'll burn through on this baby??? 10-25-50??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Stick electrode deposit rate is about 30%-50% depending on the product, the technique, and how much grinding is done (and other variables) For some processes the deposition is much lower, but it really can't get over 50% because of the flux coating and the wasted stubs. (I have read it several places, but don't have a citation.) For a starting answer, measure the area of the seams and the intended spacing. Then calculate a rough volume, then the weight of said volume in steel. Based on the previous statement (30%-50%) you can triple this number and have an estimate on required pounds of electrode. When you get to the face you should have a good feel for the required amount of electrode. Phil (maybe my statement is low, hopefully it is) http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/FM_handbook/577fm8_3.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 http://www.fabricatingandmetalworking.com/2012/04/estimating-total-welding-costs/ interesting read with tables for time and material estimates. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsepushthepopulace Posted August 30, 2012 Author Share Posted August 30, 2012 Thanks Phil, I'll measure the volume of void throughout the work, I just had no idea how much of the electrode made it to the tangible weld bead -flux.. I figure bulk is a good idea considering the task... Do you think it's a good idea to do the homogenous approach??? I just want to alleviate any/all vibration taking away impact force... Or make it less likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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