Wire brush your work while it's still hot. Hot scale will brush off much faster than cold scale. This even works to remove the mill scale on a fresh piece of hot-rolled stock.

I make most of my scrolling jigs where they will form a C-scroll that will touch without interfering with the jig when you form the second half. They are also made for standard size cuts [12",18",24",36",48"...] so I don't have alot of scrap from cutting up 20' bars. You can always make S-scrolls with any jig, but the C-scroll that touches gives you alot more design options and structure.

Now that is a real tip for the apprentice smith. Thanks

Now that is a real tip for the apprentice smith. Thanks

What is that supposed to mean?
I usually start people who want to learn this trade with scrolls and collaring, just like 10 year old David did his first day with me. That trivet can be done by anyone with no experience within an hours time. Scrolls and collars are the most efficient way that Man has ever come up with to join 2 or more pieces of metal together and create a structure.

Brian,

I would really like to see one of those jigs.

thanks

Chris

need to remove spot rust, like on car bumper or wheel fender? Aluminum Foil, wet with tap water and rub it away. Works on the bike :)

Thanks for the tip, Steve.........going to jot that one down........:)

What is that supposed to mean?
...

I mean that it is one of those tips that will save, time, money, effort and aggravation for the rest of one's career. It is the kind of tip that is so valuable that masters often take it for granted and forget mention.

I think of my self as an apprentice smith, and while parts of your reasoning have occured to me in the past, I simply had not put all the pieces together until you brought it to my attenion. Building jigs that produce touching C scrolls of particular sizes is simply not something that I had put into practice.

So Thank YOU brianbrazealblacksmith! That is what I mean.

Charlotte

I thought you might have been being sarcastic, Charlotte. Sorrry for the misinterpretation.
ChrisB, here is a picture of some scrolling jigs that make a C-scroll that will touch along with a few examples of scrolls I've made with them. I made a new one yesterday for the work in progress and a start of another one that hasn't been mounted yet.
Notice the scroll examples; the smaller one is made with the 24" jig and the larger ones on either side are made with the 36" jig. One 36" scroll will fill the same space as two 24" scrolls with less material and still afford you the less than 4" spacing you need for some gates and railings. That's another shop tip.

Brian thanks for sharing that photo of the c-scroll jigs. I'm gonna have to make some of those that is a great tip.

How do you get the metal into those scrolling jigs? Start on the inside and spiral it down, maybe? I've got a scrolling jig for a metal bender, but I like the idea of these for the ability to reproduce the exact same curves. I played hell trying to get my scrolls symmetric on a headboard I made several years ago.

I'd have to take some more pictures to show you exactly how to start one, and there are many different approaches, but basicly you fit your scroll to the start of the jig until it cams on itself where you can pull the rest to the extent of the jig.

So is the jig tapered to be taller on the section that has the tightest curve (the start of the jig)?

Wow that

My only trick is for anyone looking for small angle Iron 1

So is the jig tapered to be taller on the section that has the tightest curve (the start of the jig)?

No, it is not. It doesn't need to be unless you are making a scroll that wraps around more than usual.
I had to wait until Karen got home to take some pictures, so here they are.

Thanks, those pix are awesome. I completely get it now. Next time I do scroll work, I'll fab up a jig like that.

Brian,

How do you determine the size fo the jig? I see you haver different measurements on them.

Chris

Those measurements are just to indicate the length of material I would need to cut to make a C-scroll that will touch without interfering with the jig when you pull the second half around.

Brianbrazealsmith, please correct me if I'm mistaken but it appears that all of the scrolls are actually the same curve drawn to different scales.
Would that happen to be the "golden ration curve"

Brianbrazealsmith, please correct me if I'm mistaken but it appears that all of the scrolls are actually the same curve drawn to different scales.
Would that happen to be the "golden ration curve"

No, it is not. The "golden ratio curve" makes a scroll that will not touch, but I discovered how to make these jigs from the "golden mean".

I have to ask what the golden ratio cure and the golden mean might be.

I'm very much the newbie to all this and it's a very interesting conversation.

Russell

The "golden mean" is a mathematical proportion just like "pi" is. I don't think I could do it justice here by trying to explain its usfulness. Maybe someone else may want to give it a try.
Google it.

Brian, I to would like to understand it more, I think it may be the same geometric way of plotting the curve in a nautilus shell. If I remember it from school it had to do with the plotting thru the center of a box within a large box offset within a larger box and so on till the size of the desired "scroll" was attained it worked at that the shell on a nautilus was a perfect geometric progression or scroll and could be proved out this way.
Or I could be way off, School was a while ago!
Love learning new stuff, keep it going guys!
Tim

Golden Ratio = Divine Proportion=Golden Mean=Golden Section

"First stated Mathaematically by Euclid in Elements: A straaight line is said to have been cut in extreme and mean ratio when, as the whole line is to the greater segments, so is the greater to the the lesser.
from Divine Proportion: Phi in Art, Nature and Science by Priya Hemenway Published by Sterling Publishing 2005

"Golden Spiral : A logarithmic sprial or equiangular spiral is a special kind of spiral curve that often appears in nature... based on the Divine Proportion"
Ibid 190.

"Golden Triangle: In geometry, the Golden Triangle is an Isoceles triangle with a ratio of PHI between its side and its base. The two angles at the base of a golden triangle are 72 degrees. The angle at the apex is 36 degrees. The triangle can be broken into two smaller triangles that are also Golden triangles." ibid 190


PHI is a symbol for a ratio of 1:1.6180....

So all of the above means that the succesive points of the spiral increase at an increasing rate.
There is a lot of math related to Fibonacci numbers connected to the Golden ratio, and several other things that make mathematicans break out in sweats and start panting when they think about them.

A key point to remember is that with decent compass and a piece of paper or a clear lay out table and good divider is that you lay out the curve your self.

The Fibonacci sequence is a series of numbers in which the next number in the sequece is the sum of the two previous numbers so it is.

1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21... The ratio of the two numbers in the sequence approaches 1.6180... called PHI

Since these are ratios, the size of the spiral depends only on what you chose as the first unit. It could be inches, mm, or fractions of an inch or something you just decide on the spur of the moment to use.

I haven't checked it out but WiKipedia probably shows the drafting methods for constructing spirals in accord with the golden ratio.

Edited April 30, 200917 yr by Charlotte
Typos

Okay, you made me dig up some old drawings. The "golden mean" is like the nautilus shell, but it dosen't do you much good in architecture unless you are trying to grow a nautilus shell or just about anything else in nature. The "golden mean" always gets infinately larger. You start with a 3:5 ratio and make a square off of that, which would be 8, then keep going forever.
What works in building something is starting at one point and going in one direction and ending at a point, then starting at the same point and going in another direction and end at another point of your choosing or returning to a point of your choosing. You can choose many different directions and points to start and end with, and you can go in a straight line or an arc. This will make circles, squares, elipses, rectangles, or any combination of those shapes, and by using the "golden mean" proportion you can build things.