Help with swage block design

[fluidsteel]

Not sure if this should be in Anvils or tools?

I got a few drops from forklift tines from a customer last year and have been trying to decide what to do with them. I have given several to knife maker friends and was going to build a Brazeal inspired striker anvil from one of the larger pieces.




As best as I've been able to determine they are 4140. I will get the exact steel type from the customer for heat treating...The heat treating will be done by a local professional HT shop.

I have 8 smaller pieces that are 2"x4-3/4"x17" I was thinking of having them water jet into swage blocks.

This way I can have round and square holes cut in the center and different radi like 1/2".3/4,1",2", 3", 8" etc along the sides and end.

I want it to be similar to my small swage block with holes instead of dished areas.



I will get the exact steel type from my customer so I can have them heat treated...

What do all of you think of my project? Any recommendations on size of radi on the sides and holes? Just squares and circles or hexes too?

I'll add a drawing tonight of my idea.

[eric sprado]

I put a picture of my swage block cut on a CNC machine on here a week or so ago. Can't remember what the subject line was,but it was a discussion about swage blocks.

[fluidsteel]

I put a picture of my swage block cut on a CNC machine on here a week or so ago. Can't remember what the subject line was,but it was a discussion about swage blocks.

I saw that one Eric. It was actually what got me thinking.I was happy you shared it.
I have been wanting a swage block with through holes and figure this is the best way to go.

[ThomasPowers]

Round and square through holes to make a "super bolster plate would be great. Might make one that you could mount in the hardy hole with a stem or with a piece the size of the hardy and a similar hole in the plate that you could drop through.

[iron woodrow]

nice swage block stand ;) most people just use a stump . But the three tiered anvil kind works!

[fluidsteel]

What do you guys think of this design?

2"x4-3/4"x16-1/2" using my forklift tine pieces...

it has half circles from 1/4"-2", 1/2"-1-1/4" vees for squares, one 3/4" hex, a 4" and an 8" shallow radius.

The through holes are 5/8" and 1" circles, and 1" and 1-1/4" squares. I put the squares at the end of the block on either side so if you had a 1" or 1-1/4" hardy you could drop a piece through the hole into your hardy to hold the block in place.

I'll build a stand for the one I keep.

I got good pricing for the heat treat and depending on the final drawing will have the price for the water jet tomorrow.

Any thoughts? Is that enough through holes? I could add a couple more squares and circles if needed, but figure those four will do most punching and upsetting a person is likely to do??

[Rich Hale]

All of the half circles need to have the sharp edges relieved, When in use if you foreg a large bar into those to make a rouned piece, those edges will cut into the bar, I have not done this with the vee cuts but expect the same. You could roiund them over with a grinder after but the water jet would be nice.
You can test this in your shop on your old black,,heat and beat and see if you want to make this change.

[petere76]

Great find. Make sure you match up your (anvil) hardy dimenstions so you can do the heavy forging on the swage (strinking block) vs the anvil itself. Also consider a rectangular through cut as well. Study the Yates (sp) style blocks.

In addition to your proposed swage block idea, you have an excellent supply of hammer stock. The Fork Tines make good hammers of all styles. Good luck with your project and thanks for the pics.

Peter

[Frank Turley]

It looks good. I have never found a use for the large half-hex shapes on my old block. Do you have matching top half-round swages, so that you can get a nice round on the hot stock? When using top and bottom, and since this is custom made, the sharp edges of the half-rounds are smoothed so as to help prevent edge marks on the stock.

You might consider a quarter-round and less for a couple of the swages. I have made my own which fit in the hardy hole. I call them "shallow swages." I use them particularly for drawing suffolk-latch handle stock under the hand hammer and flatter. This gives a nice, soft look to the outside of the handle. I've shown my shallow swage in two of the enclosed photos. I've also included a photo of my old swage block to show that the half rounds are not truly half rounds, but rather, scant half rounds. I have quite a collection of old manufactured and hand forged swages, and I don't think that any of them are a full half round. The idea behind that is to keep the top and bottom swage bodies from banging into each other as the round stock was formed. The photo with the two swages shows the soft edges, especially on the larger 1 5/8"D swage.

Years ago, I saw a photo of a railroad track swage block. As I recall, it was about 1 1/2 feet long and was mounted on a timber and supported by timbers.

[ThomasPowers]

If it's forklift tine and you are water jet cutting I don't think it will need any further heat treat---save a bunch there! Tines are treated to be *tough* and will be much superior to a cast iron swageblock as it sits. If you have the equipment to work it in it's original state, I'd go that way.

[fluidsteel]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm new to blacksmithing so I'm still(always will be) learning.
I'll shallow up the half circles so they are only .40-.45 of the depth of the radius on the smaller ones and maybe add a couple that are even shallower in the 5/8"-3/4" size accross the face if the block?

I hesitated about the hex. That's why there's only one. I'll likely add the shallow radi there. Are the 1/2",5/8" sizes the most useful?

I might add a rectangle through hole. What size and what would it's use be?

Since I can't have the face dished with the water jet. What about my idea of running across the face with a shallow half round or two?

[njanvilman]

You can always do a small dishing with an small grinder, first with a coarse disc to set the shape and depth, then finish with flap sander disc(not sure what the correct term is for these, but they work great).

[iron woodrow]

dont know if it has been said and i missed it, but i reckon you should definately have a radius in the v notches and square holes, instead of a sharp corner, to reduce any stress risers, my two swage blocks are both broken on the corners, due to people (previous owners i swear!) forcing oversize drifts into the square holes near the corner. this is very likely due to the cast nature of them, but im just saying....

[ThomasPowers]

Sq holes are often used as bolsters to shape hardy stems without running the risk of breaking off the heel of your anvil. Also for heading sq rivets---very handy when you don't want items to turn. Sq holes can also be used to hold hardy tooling that doesn't fit your anvil's hardy---better to have a couple of the larger common sizes than smaller as easy as it is to sleeve a hardy hole smaller! Or perhaps you need a progression of hardy tools for a project. Very handy to not have to switch them out in turn but just proceed to the next tool in the swage block.

[fluidsteel]

Here's my new drawing. I eliminated the hex and added shallow circles. All the half circles are .050 less than half, so the .50 circles is only inset .200.

I will transfer this to Google Sketchup or some such program and add the slight radius to all the edges. I wasn't too worried about stress risers in the squares. I'll talk to the heat treater about his thoughts. I'd be more concerned about cracks in quenching than the squares cracking in use after I harden and draw them back in the temper cycle.....

I'm going with 1-1/4" and 1" squares as they are common(ish) sizes for hardies. I have an 1-3/8" on my Fisher, so I'll just file the one I keep out.

I have enough tines to make 8 swage blocks total. I might just have to buy a power hammer to forge some top tools to go with the blocks....

II might move thye 1-1/4" and 1" holes closer to center so that someone can dish out the area on the ends if they desire....Hmmmm....

I appreciate all the feedback guys!

[ThomasPowers]

IF YOU ARE CUTTING IT COLD YOU DON"T NEED TO RE-HEATTREAT. Only if you are annealing it before cutting would you then need to re-harden and temper. Fork lift tine comes at a perfectly good hardness/toughness for swageblocks and one far superior to cast iron usually used for them.

[fluidsteel]

IF YOU ARE CUTTING IT COLD YOU DON"T NEED TO RE-HEATTREAT. Only if you are annealing it before cutting would you then need to re-harden and temper. Fork lift tine comes at a perfectly good hardness/toughness for swageblocks and one far superior to cast iron usually used for them.

Lol. Sorry Thomas. I read your earlier reply. These are drops from special order tines. One end was cut on a plasma table when these pieces were cut from the new tines upright to modify the upright to a shorter height.

My reasoning on the heat treat is this. By re-heat treating the tines I will ensure the swage blocks are fully hardened, and tempered to the specs I determine are appropriate.

After the water jetting is done I could have the tines hardness tested. But... My cost for heat treating the tines is just under $200 for 8 pieces. The total is $19 each. I'd rather pay the $19 each for a product I plan on selling to get a known result.

If I was just making one swage for myself I'd do as you suggest. Intact, the post anvils that 3 of my friends made from some bigger pieces were all used as is.

Any thoughts on my reasoning?

[ThomasPowers]

$200 is 2 months of my "allowance" to spend on all my vices (and vises); or over a dozen refills of a propane tank. If you can spend it without a care, sure that would be great; but not needed in my experiences with tines. "Gilding the lily" is my opinion.

[fluidsteel]

One option is to have em jet and put the one I keep through it's paces. As of now I only have a two top swages...
I guess I'll need to buy that power hammer after all...

[ThomasPowers]

I like actual test data over "theorizing"! (and as well all know "Who knows what Evil lurks in the heart of Re-Purposed Metal?")

[fluidsteel]

I like actual test data over "theorizing"! (and as well all know "Who knows what Evil lurks in the heart of Re-Purposed Metal?")

Which is EXACTLY what my reasoning is on doing the heat treat over. I am getting the exact specs on the steel next week.

[Judson Yaggy]

Thomas is right, heat treating is a waste of money. Even if fully normalized from a plasma cut, forklift tines (4140? A good but unknown alloy at the very least) will be much harder AND tougher than all of those cast iron and ductile swage blocks out there.

One piece of your design that I would change is the way your deepest V lines up with the end of your rectangular slot and the bottom of one of the round swages. This give you a major cross sectional reduction in one plane. I'd move some of those elements around to try and keep cross section changes to a minimum. Probably doesn't matter because of the aforementioned quality of the steel, but I bet your heat treater won't like it if you do go that route. Also, I'd put at least a 1/8" fillet on each and every inside corner. 1/8" minimum, slightly bigger would be better.

[GNJC]

Hello,

Take a look at the block I designed - in the UK Blacksmiths' Guild section. I back up what has already been said with regard to avoiding sharp edges.

My blocks are cast, but there are a few features you can have cut and will probably find useful: 1) the long curve 'swoosh' with a changing radius along its length (draw a couple of lines across the radius you want, then work from both sides); 2) the step on a corner, this is for making raised edges on shovels, pots etc.; 3) the differently angled 'V' recesses, two such will give you six angles to work with; 4) differently radiused outside corners. Plus, maybe, funnel forming cones if the cutter can do it?

Can't see the point in heat treatment unless you want to work with cold metal (I may have missed a mention of this but I don't think so). If you are only working with hot iron or soft metals it seems an unnecessary cost and a risk to hammer faces.

A potentially good tool, I look forward to seeing some pic's of the final result.

Regards,

G.

[Dave H.]

I have found swage blocks make great door stops & boat anchors. I would rather make tools to use on the anvil or power hammer. Using a swage block with top tools is a 2 person job. Make a spring swage for the anvil or power hammer & it is a one person job. I know lot's of people love swage blocks but for the most part for me they are a waste.

Dave Huffman

[fluidsteel]

I worked on the design a bit more. I'm going to try putting into a 2D image program the next couple of days. I removed the rectangle and moved the 1" and 1-1/4" through squares over 1/2" to eliminate their lining up with the edges of the features around the sides and the resulting stress risers.

I also made the bottom of the 1/2 squares an 1/8" radius....and, I rounded the edges of all the other cutouts.


I might even move some of the side cutouts so that instead of being in graduating sizes they better eliminate any possible stress risers.



By eliminating the rectangle in the center it leaves a good sized area that can be later customized if a person so chooses.

Any more thoughts? I might be getting another 10 or so pieces of forklift tines to make it 18 swage blocks that I'll make so I would like to get it right. :D

I have 300# of 1-1/2" stock that's between 3-3/4" and 4-3/4" wide. I just might have to cut them into 2" pieces and build my forge press and make corresponding top tools.... B) I had a medical bill eat up the $1,200 I had set aside for a forging press and am just getting the fund built back up.