ergonomic hammers

[Ramsberg]

Hey Timothy,

Add a handle bearing(to cut down on elbow grease) and a magnetic head(to make the anvil pull the hammer towards it) and I will buy a dozen!

Caleb Ramsby

[David Einhorn]

I'm not a rocket scientist, but my humble experience is this:
- I have one chair that I can sit in pain-free. When I strained my back last year, it was the only one that I could sit in without massive pain. It was made by Herman Miller.
- On occasions that I have tired myself out from using hammers, by picking up a balanced hammer and using it, it was like getting my second wind.
- When using a balanced hammer head, I have less pain in my shoulder.

In case anyone is interested in a little reading, I have an older edition by Barlow that I enjoyed reading as part of a course that I took when pursuing my first Masters Degree :
- Single-Case Research Designs: Methods for Clinical and Applied Settings (paperback) Alan E. Kazdin (Author)
- Single Case Experimental Designs: Strategies for Studying Behavior Change (3rd Edition) [Paperback] David H. Barlow (Author)

It is very unfortunate that when conversation returns to this topic that certain individuals return to insulting bullying postings. ** Could a moderator please close this thread?**

[Timothy Miller]

Its called humor use what ever kind of hammer makes you happy.

[knots]

There is one point that needs to be made. That point is that unlike a six pound sledge, which may have some utility, the idea of an ergonomic six pound forging hammer is an oxymoron. There is a reason that six pound hammers are not found in abundance.

[Dan P.]

It is very unfortunate that when conversation returns to this topic that certain individuals return to insulting bullying postings. ** Could a moderator please close this thread?**

I'm sorry that you find certain posts to be insulting or of a bullying nature. I'm sure they weren't meant in that spirit.
The reason, I think, that this topic might sometimes cause or appear to cause controversy is that there are professional and experienced amateur blacksmiths on this forum who feel that the promotion or purveyance of wonder or miracle hammers is at odds with their own experience and understanding.

[beth]

thats very true dan, and no hammer can be a Wonder or a Miracle for EVERYONE, not unless we are all built exactly the same size and shape, work in precisely the same way, for the same amount of time, on the same kind of work, and have the same thoughts in our heads, and wear the same socks. but that doesnt mean its not a Wonder for some, a few, maybe lots? Plus, I think that if i found/designed something that i thought was brilliant ( for whatever reason - it has not happened yet and i doubt it will..) i would be very keen to try to pas this Gem on. the whole concept of money changing hands is another topic entirely, and i can take or leave that one, but really its only business, trying to sell your Idea, just like you would try to sell some piece of forge work you'd made. surely? not picking a fight, im just interested in definitions.. :)

[beth]

ps dan - im glad you said that about the 6lb hammer and the 90 degrees and all that... :) a little unrealistic for an average day... or is it just me ;)

[David Einhorn]

I'm sorry that you find certain posts to be insulting or of a bullying nature. I'm sure they weren't meant in that spirit...

I have accessed the feature so that I will not see any more postings by a person who will not be mentioned, and blocked messages so that don't get any more warnings to "stay out of (his) way".

[Dan P.]

thats very true dan, and no hammer can be a Wonder or a Miracle for EVERYONE, not unless we are all built exactly the same size and shape, work in precisely the same way, for the same amount of time, on the same kind of work, and have the same thoughts in our heads, and wear the same socks. but that doesnt mean its not a Wonder for some, a few, maybe lots? Plus, I think that if i found/designed something that i thought was brilliant ( for whatever reason - it has not happened yet and i doubt it will..) i would be very keen to try to pas this Gem on. the whole concept of money changing hands is another topic entirely, and i can take or leave that one, but really its only business, trying to sell your Idea, just like you would try to sell some piece of forge work you'd made. surely? not picking a fight, im just interested in definitions.. :)

If I am to be blunt, the target demographic of purveyors of luxury hammers is usually people without a lot of experience in using hammers for forging.
Well, business is business, of course, but marketing something as utterly commonplace as a hammer is bound to include what we might call hyperbole, or what used to be labelled "bull dust" by gentlemen of the outdoor sort.
Ultimately, the hammer you use is a fairly minor part of the factors that make up healthy forging technique.

[Dan P.]

ps dan - im glad you said that about the 6lb hammer and the 90 degrees and all that... :) a little unrealistic for an average day... or is it just me ;)

Well, I don't mean to call anyone an "exaggerator", but any workshop that typically forges 1.5" round day-to-day would surely have a power hammer, for starters?

[beth]

yes they would, you'd have thought and it made me raise a bit of an eyebrow ... :) i agree with what you say about the hammer being such a small part of what effects your technique, absolutely, and we all have seen smiths with very few tools make staggering work. the ingredients of how that smith made that groovy work of beauty/function is an entirely different subject - i just defend the position of anyone who wishes to sell something they believe to be a cool item.. if they are marketing it cynically and not from the heart, i defend them NOT.

[Dan P.]

i just defend the position of anyone who wishes to sell something they believe to be a cool item.. if they are marketing it cynically and not from the heart, i defend them NOT.

I am totally in favour of people making and selling hammers that they think are good, and there are different merits to different styles.
However, when sold as somehow superior to other people's hammers I am not in favour. Indeed, I had a member of this forum tell me that his hammer had more available surfaces than any other hammer, which is a bold or even arrogant statement in terms of the utility of all the hammers existing in the world that this person has not seen, and a false statement if taken literally, as any curved surface will have infinite available surfaces.

[Ramsberg]

Hey David Einhorn,

Just curious to know if you hold the balanced hammer in your hand differently and/or have your hand closer to the hammer head then with your other hammers.

I mention this because both Hofi and Brians techniques are to hold the hammer handle rather close to the head. This produces a DRASTIC reduction in the torsion which the hammer head exerts on the mechanism of ones swing. That plus the loose, sideways grip also reduces the torsion.

Both of the above allow one to experience equal or lower stresses on ones body with heavier hammer heads.

Holding a six pound hammer with just a few fingers gap between the head and ones hand makes it just as easy to swing as a 2 or 3 lb hammer held at the end of a long handle.

The above is the real "balancing" of the hammer.

I am not trying to be a smart alec or anything(well maybe just a little, can't help it! ) but, when you are forging with your regular hammers do you strike only square with the two faces of the head or do you twist or tilt the hammer to strike with the various edges of the head?

Just curious, since the more one knows about the how and why of other peoples hammering techniques the greater ones abiilty to personally advance in their techniques.

Caleb Ramsby

[Rich Hale]

I enjoy this topic: i am not new at forgin and in fact have used some kind of hammers all of my life. And I am old! That said, I have old school thought and ways that get me thourgh the day. i rarely seen anyone with a lot of fogin experience jump on th elatest bandwagon in tow when it comes to tools, However those same folks do take alook with an eye for anything that will work well in their shop. it is just good business. The samwe as setting aside some of wotever budget you have for training each and every year. My choice of hammers for tasks has changed alot over the years.But each and everytime I changed I was more than willing to step back from that change if not a good one. Folks th atpost both pro and con about any hammer or method in these forums should consider wot they have in expeerience to really impact the style or shape involved. I can just about pick out the new folks on any thread in this site by how they post. i rely alot on those that. have the background to support their thoughts. And as a Long time member of the site i can really enjoy the group that has joined over the years that really have a lot to offer and i say thanks to each of them.

[Sask Mark]

Indeed, I had a member of this forum tell me that his hammer had more available surfaces than any other hammer, which is a bold or even arrogant statement in terms of the utility of all the hammers existing in the world that this person has not seen, and a false statement if taken literally, as any curved surface will have infinite available surfaces.

I remember this conversation. The last thing I would refer to Brian Brazeal as being is arrogant. Even seasoned veterans who have taken classes from him have nothing but good things to say. I would not discount anything he says unless I can prove him wrong.

[Dan P.]

I remember this conversation.

So you, too, think that the hammer in question in that conversation has more useable surface than any other hammer in the world, including those which you have never seen?
I see that as an eminently discountable position, except perhaps by the eminently credulous.

[Sask Mark]

I never said that. I am so green in the world of blacksmithing that it would be foolish for anyone to take my word for it.

I'm just saying that when Brian Brazeal talks, people listen because he has backed up his words by moving metal with hammers in a way that many people (including master bladesmiths) didn't know was possible. If you can provide evidence of a hammer that has more usable radii and striking surfaces than Brian's hammer, then all the power to you. Until then, I don't think it's right to use such strong words to discount what Brian claims. Brian showed his evidence, now you show yours.

[Steve Sells]

OK guys try to calm down a bit Personal attacks and hot heads never get much done. This is a good topic, but please focus on the details not the personal members, or we will be forced to close the thread, as per IFI rules, personal attacks are forbidden.

[Ten Hammers]

Wonder hammers, wonder bras, wonder bread, it's all good.

[Dan P.]

I'm just saying that when Brian Brazeal talks, people listen because he has backed up his words by moving metal with hammers in a way that many people (including master bladesmiths) didn't know was possible. If you can provide evidence of a hammer that has more usable radii and striking surfaces than Brian's hammer, then all the power to you. Until then, I don't think it's right to use such strong words to discount what Brian claims. Brian showed his evidence, now you show yours.

Let's follow Steve Sells' excellent advice and try to not make this about individuals. I am happy to acknowledge anyone as an excellent smith, but I am also happy to acknowledge any statement as being self-aggrandizing or unlikely, whoever might have made it. I think suggesting that some people can't or shouldn't be criticized is unwholesome, especially if they are presenting something as being categorically superior to others.
As a professional blacksmith of 10 years experience, I feel that I know enough to say that technique should inform, but serve, form. Belief that technique is an end in itself is something I will leave to hobbyists and those whose target demographic they are.

[Bob S]

Let's follow Steve Sells' excellent advice and try to not make this about individuals. I am happy to acknowledge anyone as an excellent smith, but I am also happy to acknowledge any statement as being self-aggrandizing or unlikely, whoever might have made it. I think suggesting that some people can't or shouldn't be criticized is unwholesome, especially if they are presenting something as being categorically superior to others.
As a professional blacksmith of 10 years experience, I feel that I know enough to say that technique should inform, but serve, form. Belief that technique is an end in itself is something I will leave to hobbyists and those whose target demographic they are.

excellent comments.

[Ten Hammers]

Perhaps I have missed something. Please correct me if I have.

Anvil height and tooling table height alone make a major part of any issues I may have with sore elbows or fatigue. The wrong hammer yes can be a part of the problem. I prefer hammers with longer thinner springy handles. I have used several styles of heads on hammers and prefer straight piens simply because when you draw over the horn and loop, the natural flop of the head results in the straight pien wanting to assist in moving the loop while keeping the same posture. The same can be said on the far side of the anvil. The near corner of the face of the hammer is used in the same technique but a pien helps me to more aggressively move stock. My preference. A cross pien of course gets used as well (like dishing a leaf on the step and then curling it a bit on the far side of the horn where the step meets it).

Frank pretty much covered my opinions on ergonomics. He makes an excellent statement about hammers when he does a demo. His experience re-affirms my thoughts and experience (meaning that what I have learned is right for me). Of course continuing education is the key and continued work gains us experience.

[beth]

absolutely ten hammers :) we all learn what is right for us dont we. we have to use our discernment to navigate any advertising we might encounter. i will just say though ten hammers, that the bread is good, the hammer is better, but the wonder bra ?? only Wonderful to look at, Not to wear! as all things - subjectively wonderful :)

[Ten Hammers]

" but the wonder bra ?? only Wonderful to look at, Not to wear! as all things - subjectively wonderful :) "

Yes M'am, since I don't wear one I'll rely on the experienced that do. :D

[Steve Sells]

A rebuttal to the comments about hammer size: I do use a 4.6# as my normal working hammer and sometimes a 6# cross pein for prolonged periods. I heared the same doubts from mermbers, until a few saw me at hammer-ins working with it in the heat all weekend. Some one even said I am accurate and faster than him using a 2.5# or 3# hammer. The point is some people use different tools. why automaticaly assume they wrong? One of my mentors still uses a 6# and 8# regularly, even though he does have power hammers.

FYI: I had to get permission from zoning to build my shop in this Historic residential neighborhood, and even then I was still restricted to less than 200 square feet. so not every one working large stock can use power hammers, I am not even allowed one here.