greensngravy Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 This will be my first try, but it looks like I'm going to start a damascus twist for my blade. It seems like the easiest way to get a damascus alloy without the use of a trip hammer - just forge weld a few alternating layers of hi-cabon/mild steel and then re-heat and start twisting and pounding over and over til Kingdom Come. Is that basically all there is to the process, or am I missing the boat?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Big boat dude! You're looking to get a pattern? So use steels that are known to have good contrast. I use 1095 and 15N20. Both have similar forging and hardening temperatures. This eliminates a lot of discouragement. I have gotten a lot of help here from a Gentleman named Rich Hale. I heed his advice and so should you. There is no easy way way to pattern weld so get rid of that idea right away. I weld up a billet to ? layers and then try to make it square.....Then octagonal ...then round it up a bit. Take it to welding heat then twist. Be careful not to let the steel fold in on itself as this will create nasties. Now flatten that sucker out and see what you get....you will be very pleased,as was I. Send me an email and I will help wherever I can. I am by no means an expert but what I will say is that is that the advice I got is! I have made great billets and bad. Every mistake I make teaches me something new. I admire your desire to achieve and wish you well in your efforts! Do not hesitate to inbox me for what I have learned. If you get the same results i get from the advice you'll be singing.......My feet haven't touched ground since I made the first successful billet. Cheers Loneforge Blades......Oh and I have only been forging a short while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 Thanks Loneforge. I think my first step is to find out what types of steel I have. An old blacksmith gave me some nice hi-carbon steel plates of unknown specific makeup. He said he inherited them from a knifemaker who didn't need them anymore. The second steel I have is from an old auto suspension spring. Those two seem to have similar qualities (i.e., hi carbon content). On the other hand I have heard that using a mild steel to complement the mix is also a good route. Which way should I go? Once I get the right two alloys paired up I will start heating and beating and twisting... And as far as the flux, I have some old school 20 Mule Team Borax. Do I sprinkle that on between each layer prior to heating to make my initial billet? Looking forward to some hot steel this weekend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brucegodlesky Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 If it were me, I would concentrate on getting the desired layer count before twisting. You lose the twist with each subsequent fold. YMMV bruce/birdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 The other option is to do just wot you said in the first post. Get some steel and pound it over and over etc. i say this as I highly suspect that yoiu have forged very little if any at all. this will let yoiu know just where yoiu are with come from the factory built in skills that need very little tweeking to make advanced items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 I wouldn't make a first attempt at pattern welding using unknown steels. You need contrasting steels to make the pattern. 15n20 is a great high nickel steel which heat treats and contrasts well with 1080 high carbon steel. . The 1080 etches dark, the 15n20 etched silvery. Hope this helps (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted April 27, 2012 Share Posted April 27, 2012 Heat your steel to a reddish color before fluxing. You only need to flux the edges. Once the steel is hot enough to turn flux glassy take it to welding heat then hammer lightly to make the weld. After each heat brush and reflux. Good luck on your first welds and don't be discouraged if it doesn't work out the first time. Mine didn't LOL :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted April 27, 2012 Author Share Posted April 27, 2012 I think I'm with Rich on this one. I need to pound and pound first, but because I don't really have any data on the types of steel I have on hand, I am going to try matching the "hi-carbon" steel given to me by a knifemaker, and the coil spring steel from the crap yard and test it to see if it welds the layers together, and just go from there. If not, I'll try something else. The important thing for me is to get comfortable with my dexterity and hammering skills and fire management. Either way, it's gonna be fun... And thanks for the tips on the flux! OK, maybe a pic will help: the first wide piece on the left is the hi-c knife steel. The center piece is the coil spring which I will hammer to the similar thickness. The third is the mild steel. Let me know you initial thoughts on which two to use, or maybe I should use all three??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigred1o1 Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 no offence but i am not taking the time to download a 3.6mb photo if you have a camra that will take a photo that large i betting you have a fragment of skill to re-size it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 Mebbeso he is new to smithin and taking pics...And mebbeso he will get better at both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted April 28, 2012 Author Share Posted April 28, 2012 BigRed: I'm not smart enough....I'll give some more attention to it later. Life is calling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Yates Posted April 28, 2012 Share Posted April 28, 2012 first off start with a smaller photo . Next work with 1 / One Steel ! you are a newbie to Damascus and it is not an easy thing to master . As for a milti type of steel wait for it ! !!! you will pull you hair out , I have made and worked with Damascus / pattern welding for quite some time and even for a Master Blade Smith at home a tri level or more is Extremely hard to do well with out having any delamination or failures of the steel. start slow / small and work up it will help you in the long run I Know first hand , by all means do not give up on your ideas but you have to crawl before you run . Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 known steel makes it 10x easier, getting shown how to do it in person makes it 10x easier again :D have fun giving it a go, but dont be to disapointed if it does not work out like you hoped. The spring steel is likely a silicon / manganese steel, and will have a different austentising temperature than the mystery 'high carbon' steel, so heat treating will be a crap shoot, the carbon will migrate with the welding, the alloying elements wont..... lots to think about ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 Well...we certainly can't abide differential austentising temperatures...:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Green that may not make a lot of sense to you at this time,,(or maybe it does) But it is important,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 read the HT sticky's and maybe you will see that differing austentising temps do matter. Also try reading a bit more, so you dont sound as silly. FYI, Mild steel makes terrible blades. Not recommended for use in a PW blade billet, not that it matters at this point, but something to think about. One will have problems trying to HT correctly if you have unknown steels, I have done this a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Old Curmudgeon - your name is well-deserved...I was hoping to bring a bit of whimsy into this crowd. I'm a little quirky, so you'll just have to just tolerate me for now. I'll get up to speed at some point, but just remember the newbies are many times not seeking to be pros, and they know they will never reach the heights of skill that most of you are at for quite some time. Have patience Oh Sahib, and try to lighten up a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 actually there is no reason you can not pattern weld it as well as I or others do, there is no secret to getting it done. and I feel there is no excuse to settle for anything less than your best :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chichi Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Greensngravy, I am near la crosse Wi. If you PM me, I can walk you thru damascus. Simple, but lots of pounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Forge welding is one of those things that an afternoon spent with a fellow who's good at it can save you *MONTHS* of trying to figure it out on your own. My favorite play around billet is about 25 layers of band saw blade and pallet strapping (welding in a coal fire I put pallet strapping for the outer layers) doesn't take as many folds to get a good layer density when you start at 25 than 3 or 5 and the BSB usually has Ni for good differentiation. (Also you can find pallet strapping that is not mild steel to help the total C content) (check by heating and quenching in water and checking for brittlness-PPE mandatory!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greensngravy Posted May 5, 2012 Author Share Posted May 5, 2012 Boy you got that right...I spent a good two hours yesterday trying to forge weld two flat pieces of steel together, to no avail. I'm sure I don't have the right combination of heat and flux, but I think the two alloys should have been compatible. I used a flat piece of spring steel hammered flat, and steel that was formerly a crank for a small car jack - both could hold a temper. Not knowing the exact alloys is probably a hinderance. I used straight borax, sprinkling it generously on the sides and in between the two pieces, then heating to orange, then hammering. A few times the metal overheated and sparked, and end pieces fell off. Could it be my coal? It was very smoky for the first 15 minutes then it settled down nicely. It looks like bituminous for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loneforge Posted May 5, 2012 Share Posted May 5, 2012 Are you tack welding the two pieces together,(I do) this way they won't stray on you when struck. Reddish orange then flux. Now wait till the flux bubbles and skitters around on the surface. Remove form heat and give three or four firm but not monstrous hits. Hitting too hard will not weld...I hit lightly for at least 3-4 heats before I start to come after it. The sound and feel on the steel will change once it welds....It'll feel better,( hope that makes sense). Try again Man and don't hit too hard. I weld my billets with baby hits with a 2lb hammer. I draw the welds out with a 4 pounder. Good Luck and keep us posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I used to weld anything to anything that was knocking about. Im not proud of the fact that I chopped the back out of a cupboard at work coz it was 1.5mm thick, welded up nice though! cutting your teeth on non compatible steels makes it very easy indeed when you get some 'good stuff' To get steels to weld youve just got to set the mood right for them, they have got to be clean and intimate before you start, gently get them hot in a nice atmosphere (a bit of barry white in the workshop, or some such thing may help, certainly wont do any harm), a few piches of flux when they are starting to get a little red round the edges, a little more when they have had a soak together, then quick! before they realise whats happening gently push them together into one :D A couple of things that ive found usefull are a pair of green shades ( I think a no.3 ) that gas welders use - these let you watch whats going on without burning the backs of your eyes out...., the second (which you can do after procurment of the first!) is to watch the flux. When the billet is nearly at heat the flux (I only use borax) will look smooth and glassy, like melted butter, then it starts to 'run around like kids in a playground *) youll know this when you actually see it. When the 'kids are running' a smooth motion from forge to anvil and tap tap tap. No time for dilly dallying - rehearse before hand if you need to, fractions of seconds count :D Show some pics when you get one to stick! * description thanks to Uncle Col from British Blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJAX Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 so when are we going to see an attempt at some damascus, we gotta see some pictures, were rooting for ya! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 When you first posted this question I gave you an answer i thought you wished to hear,,and I was right,,you needed to beat on something. That of course did nothing for you learning about forge welding. I may have increased the size of your hammer arm thought,,,lol. That said if you are ready to move on and learn something there is a lot of information on this site that will get you where you say you wish to be. Some of that informatin has already been typed into this thread, Reread that over and over as make it part of wot you do at the anvil. Research these forums for information,,,a whole lot of information has been posted here by foiks that can do this anytime. If there is information you find that makes no sense to you link it in here and I or someone will help you with it as best we can. Forgewelding is really tough to learn if you do it over and over the wrong way,,With help you can do it,,anybody can,,or I would not have learned how! You do some of the research and I for one will make sure to help you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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