David Gaddis Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I have two anvils that need some serious resurfacing. That means a lot of hard work..and a lot of hard surface to grind down to smooth. So far I have used a "x" brand disc on an anvil and it hardly touched the stuff. What I need is some real suggestions: Name brand; zirconia or alumina etc; stone or disc; grit grade; any info This may be far out but I will be removing a bunch of stuff, after flattening with buildup and surface treatment. Of course all information is appreciated All plans at this time are for 4.5 inch and 9 inch angle grinders...Milwaukee Name brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 I hate to be discouraging David but really if you are asking this question it is clear that you are in over your head. I am sure that you could buy anvils in better shape cheaper than resurfacing the ones you have. If you already own or have access to surface grinding equipment and other industrial goodies the situation would be different... but as it stands I have to advise you that you would be money ahead to abandon or liquidate cheaply the anvils that need repair and to acquire one or more that is already in usable condition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Mc Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 You might consider a machine shop. I wish I knew what to tell you otherwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Being in a similar position...I've gradually picked up the rods and lots of suggestions and information from many sources on how to accomplish this task... I'm sure not all of it was/is usable. Don't know your exact plans,but I'm using hardfacing electrodes to build-up the surface and I bought 5 carborundum cups to grind down what I anticipate being a very tough weld build-up. If it takes more than two of them I'd be surprised,but it was a fiver sale...LOL (might consider selling a couple if you can't find any cheap) From other sites... mostly welding forums I'm on... by using a large cup with a large grinder and maintaining the cup level so sparks are coming off both sides it should be easier to maintain a flat grind (but it takes a steady hand & close attention). It's more difficult to cut the surface down level with a disc than one of these cups & they are supposed to be pretty aggressive. I haven't used one yet. You can finish with a flap disc but for the inital cut-down the carborundum cups might do a better job for leveling the rough stuff....especially hardfacing which is very hard. The rods I have are HRC55 with severe impact resistance and abrasion resistant... Sounded about right for an anvil. I still have some more research to do before trying to do this...My old Mouse Hole still has most of the original face intact although the heel is broken off . Having the original face does make it a bit simpler since the body is forged and IF exposed would require additional rod types to act as a buttering layer between the hardfacing rod and the forged body. I gave considerable thought about welding on the face,but I've seen others that have been welded and the finished product was superior to the rough almost unusable crowned face that's on my anvil. Mine still rings and a hammer bounces easily on it,but considering the un-even nature of the face it would be an exercise in workmanship to find a sweet spot. If it hadn't belonged to my Grandfather I doubt I'd bother with the work or expense to attempt fixing this baby.He gave me the anvil when I was 4-5 and I've spent a bunch already on stuff to fix it (very cheap deals) and haven't done anything except clean it and grind off the mushroomed edges. It looks a lot better,but still far from an acceptable tool. I have no idea who or why it was damaged like it is ...it's always been this way as long as I can remember...so it was damaged prior to 1949... I discussed anvil repair with a fellow in Tenn. ? that has repaired several using plain 7018 rods,but since I already have the hardfacing rods ...why the devil not use them...has to be a superior face repair. Most sites suggest using 2 types of Stoody rods to fix an anvil,but at $200+ just for the rods... I'd just go buy an anvil. Any questions? I'll be glad to share what little I've learned and what little I know on the subject... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wish Pep would weigh in. Last major anvil repair I saw done was when he rebuilt an entire anvil face that had been milled clean flat and *too* *thin*. He spent about 5 hours on it and left it prettier than when it was new! Lots of grinding, lots of welding. (And then he did mine a 400+ pounder that suffered abuse in a copper mine) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I haven't tackled mine just yet... I'm still "contemplating" which direction to go.... My first thought was to weld a new plate onto the body,but that seems to NOT be such a good path...SO I gave that idea up quick. Most acceptable methods are very labor intensive and just flat expensive,but I hope to hit a happy medium and have an acceptable finished product without breaking the bank and going overboard. I can live with the excessive time involved since mine is a labor of love and not an attempt to make money on the finished product. I should mention that several people suggested pre-heating the anvil before welding on it and at least one fellow that had done a considerable amount of hardfacing suggested putting the rods in an oven before using them for better results... BOTH ideas seemed prudent suggestions since the end results probably need all the help they can get for the best possible outcome. I started looking for methods for fixing an anvil on the various welding sites I'm on and it became clear very quickly there is a great deal more involved in this project than just laying some weld beads on the face. One thing lead to another and I found myself learning more & more and visiting more & more metalworking/blacksmithing sites ....BINGO... Another long put off interest re-awakened and now I'm learning far more than I originally bargained for... Which is a good thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigred1o1 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 well it took some digging but i finally found the old thread i was looking for good photos and it talks about how to weld a face onto a anvil as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is all well and good but what I need is part numbers of the best grinder discs / types to use. We have used so-and-so discs but I do not think I want to tackle anything other than misc. electric welding grinds. Anyone who has put a grinder into HF whos what I am referring to. Just give a name and a number...then we can find the right destributor. I like my local welding supply man but he sell stuff off the wall. That means that he is not well experienced. Good sales representatives have moved away it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Have you checked with the manufacturer of your rod to see what they suggest for grinding on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I've put grinder to hardfacing and do NOT recommend it, even if you plan on using high dollar cups, disks, etc. Hardfacing is abrasion resistent and often has little impact or deflection resistance. Use buildup rod it's designed for deflection and impact resistance and depending on the type can be taken up to 55rc., just the thing for an anvil. Back to the question, what I found worked surprisingly well was a hand held belt sander running diamond or zirconia abrasives. The downside is it was still rIdiculously time consuming. The other technique that was actually reasonably worthwhile time and abrasive wear wise is to grind it hot, in the mid red is good, too hot and it just loads up the wheel, cup, disk, etc. HF rod is NOT impact resistant so expect it to chip after a while. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Don't want to dispute your thoughts on hardfacing rods,but the specification sheets on several types of hardfacing rods specifically state they are heavy impact resistant... just an example --http://www.eurekaelectrodes.com/hardfacing-electrodes.html The hardfacing by it's nature will be more prone to chipping than an original face made up of a solid piece,but other than totally re-facing the anvil in a forge the options are fairly limited. (hitting a repaired anvil face a glancing blow would probably cause a chip,but if used correctly it shouldn't be an issue) A full face weldment should actually be less likely to chip than the several edge welds I've seen as repairs. Those thin lines if struck a glancing blow could indeed chip easily....a full face weldment would be more likely to come off in a large sheet if the weld failed from impact. As you can see there are a number of different specifications depending on intended application and the specific electrode used. Some are even work hardened after application...The electrodes I have are both abrasion and impact resistant with a 55rc hardness upon application. No one said it was going to be easy to grind the surface level...It will take time and work,besides if it was easy it wouldn't be worth a flip in use. I sure don't expect this to be a 2 day job.... more like 2 weeks with considerable periods of rest in between...LOL I will look into the suggestion of the belt sander,but the cup grinder will probably bring the surface down quicker(and cheaper) than a belt and then use a belt for smoother finishing...I'd rather have access to a large surface grinder or a large milling machine,but I don't.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 When reading HF specs it's good to remember HF is applied on pretty solid objects like dozer blades, drill bits, etc. Very few rodes or wires can be laid twice. More than two and it tends to spall on cooling. If laid on flexible tools like auger fins you have to use something like Lincore 50 or one of the Eutectic rods or it just breaks as the fin flexes. Hardfacing's abraision resistence is from the bits of tungsten, etc. held in the steel matrix, not it's RC. Frankly the lower the RC the better it lasts in an abrasive environment. Where any of this applies to an anvil is the body's rebound. If the body has only a few thousandths of rebound hardfacing will remain reasonably durable but if it's greater, say a wrought body you'll get impact checking. As an exagerated example lay a sheet of window glass on a piece of foam rubber and press in the center, it'll break from flexing. Then lay a sheet of window glass on a clean table top and you can dance on it without breaking it. This is much the weakness of most hardfacing rods. Buildup rod on the other hand is intended to be laid under hardfacing to provide a relatively inflexible surface like the table top. I don't recall just what we used but as I recall it was similar to 80-100 Jet rod, tough, inflexible and flowed like water but not hard, a dream to run. It was almost as much a joy as tigging stainless. None of us are into this craft because it's easy, a person is free to chose their own path. The question was asked and I have some 20 years experience with hardfacing, buildup and the like and am passing it along. Were I to have to chose I'd take in some welding jobs, save the money and buy a new anvil. Frosty The Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 " Were I to have to chose I'd take in some welding jobs, save the money and buy a new anvil." You're points about hardfacing are ALL well taken and I agree with the above comment... while spilling coffee in laughter ! After months of research I have to conclude there are almost as many methods of repair as there are needed repairs..... mostly a crapshoot at success by using the best info and materials available.... Anything short of an 18th-19th century repair will have it's shortfalls. I have some 10018 bridge welding rods that I thought about using to re-attach a "new" heel to the forged iron body of this badly damaged Mouse Hole anvil... Your thoughts about such a "fix" would be appreciated.... Although it's been broken in excess of 60 years I'd still like to restore it if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Frosty is right, most Hardfaceing rod is not terribly impact resistant (some are), and often its a Stainless steel alloy. When you weld these to anvils they seem to always crack off after so many hours of use. Most of the Hard-facing rods that are SS will not bond right with the parent steel of the anvils that is more likely a simple steel like 1050. Use the build up rod. Often all these rods are called hard-facing buy the seller. But there is a difference between Build up rod and Hard-facing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The electrodes I have are... "Arcos Alloy Corp Surfacing filler iron chromium alloy C 0.4 Cr 3.5 Mn 1 Mo 0.5 Si 0.6 bal Fe Welded 55HRC For hardfacing electrodes:martensite steel to withstand severe abrasion, heavy impact" If that information is useful.... That's ALL I've been able to find on them and I've tried to cross reference them (composition wise) to similar Stoody rods as far as application uses with little success. The correct Stoody rods would run in excess of $200 plus the extreme amount of labor... and Frosty's "Buy a new anvil" comment would make more sense. I'm trying for the best possible outcome with the available materials .... I don't NEED this anvil...I just want to fix it as best I can without breaking the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 That is filler rod for use under hardfacing rod and should work well. It has 40pts of carbon so will be more tough than hard embrittlement is a BAD thing in buildup rod. The chrome and moly will lend it resilient strength and deformation resistence, it looks like there's enough moly to be air hardening and it work hardens in a good way. None of the alloys should make this rod so hard it's going to just eat grinding disks. I'd give this stuff a try. Reattaching the heal I don't know about or is just that part of face missing and I didn't get it? The term I had rolling around my head but wouldn't come to my fingers is, "Point of diminishing returns" meaning grinding hardfacing rod to shape takes so much time and disposable tools it costs more to do than it's worth. Frosty The Lucky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 I sorta lucked into a 10# tube of that particular rod by accident...Fixing this anvil is only because it was my Grandfathers and I want to see if it can be done (by me) the time and material cost aren't an issue on this particular project... The entire heel was broken off before 1949 and it's looked just as it is since the first time I ever saw it.... (it was my first horse) I examined it more today and took some pics after I cleaned it up along the face edges... The remaining portion of the face is 4.5" x 12" and only a small section has any resemblance of flat... I intended to bring one of the carborundum cups home and post a pic of it also,but forgot the dang thing.. The pics tell more than words... David...You need to post some pics of the anvils you're trying to rebuild so we can offer more suggestions & ideas.... Frosty has helped greatly,I even found several posts on the subject from 2007 or 08 that he responded to on another forum...I asked questions on 4 different welding forums and have learned more on blacksmithing forums about this particular repair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Woo hooo that will be some work. But it is certainly doable. Yes we have established that it will most surly cost more than buying a new one, but that's not the point. There is a anvil in about the same shape in my family but it still has a heal. But the face looks the same........ destroyed. I hope to repair it to new shape one day as well. I would grind away any loose bits of face before I started welding. Then grind and weld on the tail until its flat again. Make the new heel by ether having a block of steel cut and forged to shape, or piecing one together from heavy plate. cut deep chamfers on the new heel so you can achieve nearly 100% penetration when you weld it on. Then start welding it up. I have been told by some that they will lay a row a beads all in one direction covering the full area then for the second pass they will lay all the beads perpendicular to the last. Look up "Rob Gunter anvil repair" a good read on anvil repair good luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 "Woo hooo that will be some work" I'm still chuckling over that...LOL I've read & re-read Gunters Anvil repair (and several others too) I'm not too concerned with time or expense since I already have everything except the replacement heel and that may be a piece of forklift fork I'm getting next week. I have some 1.5" steel plate ,but the fork is only slightly wider than the anvil and about the right thickness to do this repair... The rest of the fork will be turned into a fabricated anvil of sorts.. (might get 2 forks if I'm lucky)..and I'll used the thick steel plate which is 6" wide on edge as the body of an anvil with the fork section as the face... If I get 2 forks I'll use the bend against the main body with the leg against the body and weld the outer curve where the heel is broken off....The curve will act as the bevel (at the face) and a short leg will fill in the part that is missing. This L-shape will allow me to drill and bolt (counter sunk bolts) the new heel onto the main body and by beveling all around the replacement I'll also weld it to the main body. I can then fabricate the original curve under the heel and weld it there to finish things off (It shouldn't break off again) Thankfully I'm not doing this because I have to...I'd just like to restore it and since I have the tools required and I'm getting the knowledge to fix it I'm taking my time and with any luck It'll come out OK... This old thread http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/16234-anvil-repair-on-the-cheap/page__pid__264315__st__20#entry264315 about welding an anvil came out better than I expected it to. If mine comes out 1/2 that good It'll be far better than what it's good for now... It doesn't even "look" like an acceptable door stop as it is much less like a usable tool. David..... I'd really like to see those 2 anvils you want to repair. Information on fixing an anvil isn't that extensive online and any knowledge we can all generate will be a great help to others... The repair I linked to above was a severely damaged anvil and to wind up with 85% re-bound is great (and it looks great too) Everyone has something to contribute on this and in the process we all learn more and resolve things as well as sorting out the good/bad suggestions. I know I'm learning and that's always a good thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boyhowdy2113 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 If you want to remove alot of metal, your best bet in a NORTON Stone CUP wheel. Once that is done, go to a 36 grit disc, then a 50 grit, 80 grit, and finish with a 100 grit. All Made By NORTON. As for build up rod, Hard facing rods are for abrasion, more than Impact. I used Mangenese rod to build up mine, and after 15 years, it is still holding up good. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evfreek Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 For fabricated anvils, my buddies and I have had better luck with high quality angle grinder disks. For example, 45 minutes with a cheap Home D disk did not do much good, but a nice Walter disk did the job in 15 minutes (rounding one edge of a piece of AR armor plate). The fellow at the welding store was very helpful. He said that the Walter disks cost a lot more (like $4), but they were worth it. He got a lot of complaints from customers, though. My time in the shop is pretty precious, so I don't have time to goof around with slow cutting wheels. I just gave the Walter wheel to my buddy and instructed him to only break it out on special occasions. Then it won't hurt so much buying a new one. From reading your posts above, it looks like you are in a similar situation to me. Too much time on the Internet, and too little time in the shop. Here is a suggestion. Carve up the problem into smaller pieces. Don't overthink the whole job, and go backwards. Just get out there and do something when you have the time. My suggestion is to try something simple, like a leaf. I gave this suggestion to another friend, and he told me that his anvil was too bad to make even a leaf. I came over, and he was right! There was not a single good edge on the entire thing. Not even 1/4" of edge. In this case, it is time to do a practice hardfacing run on a block of mild steel. Drop it in the hardy hole, or if you don't have one yet, weld on a temporary one or clamp. Make your leaf. Voila, you've done something, and you now have a tool and a prototype for your process. This last blurb was not original, and it did not come from me. Credit to the guru of anvilfire.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I've got several of the large stone cup wheels and while I may use one to knock down the big lumps ...I'm pretty sure my homemade surface grinder with grinding wheels will be a far simpler method of obtaining a flatter surface. At least that way there will be little deviation as the wheel passes over the surface. I have the luxury of not being pressed for time so making something to do this easier and better is fine with me. I've got a buddy with a huge old shaper in the corner of his shop and if this gets out of hand and seems like grinding it is a crazy notion...He & I are going to talk about me buying or using that monster. They have limited uses and his has been setting for many years un-used but surfacing something like an anvil would be exactly what that machine was made to do.... It's half the size of a VW bug and the vise alone is twice the size of my anvil.... I just hate to impose on anyone,but I may for this project. He's an old fart like me and might get a kick out of using it again after 15 years dormant. Actually I just remembered he had the dang thing... it's been years since I talked to him about buying it....Thanks for jogging my brain into thinking. Might be a far simpler way to surface the anvil than anything I've thought up so far...and lots quicker. He's a far better welder than I am too. It looks like this for those unfamiliar with Antique Shapers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 Well I am back now from a few days of travel. My intentions are to resurface the two anvils below. the 75 pounder has Vanadium stamped on the side and is quite lively but one edge is obliterated. The amount of sway through the top is not a problem. The 186 pound PW? is swayed, partial piece missing, one edge round as a cigar and table destroyed too. It is quite lively too. Using this anvil is problematic to locate a good edge and good surface at the same place. Whoever used this anvil certainly used the same spot repeatedly. I plan to re-level top while replacing the missing corner. The amount of sway in part is near 1/4 in on the worst side while about 1/8 on the best edge. Also, plans are for handheld angle grinder (large one) with cup stone to near level then HF and re=level and re-edge. I have been attempting to get a name brand and stone makeup criterial to accomplish the grinding. With access to a lot of equiptment I think the experience could be beneficial. However I do not want to do a lot of work and end up like some of the other postings that report a dud anvil. I can use wire or stick with a preference toward wire because of effeciency and a better weld puddle shape in buildup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudbugone Posted February 27, 2012 Share Posted February 27, 2012 Figured you were out of pocket David... We hadn't sent the search party out just yet... That first anvil looks like some nut was using a cutting torch to cut something setting on his anvil and miscalculated where the anvil was... It could have been down the center of the face (lucky) If this anvil could be "fixed" you should be able to do those two... http://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/16234-anvil-repair-on-the-cheap/page__pid__264315__st__20#entry264315 I've seen several similar repairs done to anvils and they were almost unnoticable after time,but I don't know the process used to accomplish the repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Gaddis Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 WELL well well. There seems that some of the solution is coming into view. The term "snagging wheel" is what is used for a grinding situation that may be involving highly erratic impulses with the contact! What doe that mean? It is how rough you gouge on the material with that tool. This is not surfac e or tool roof type operation that I was somewhat experienced at before. And we are not talking about 2 ten-thousanths contact either. we are talking about heavy-duty grinding from the highs and lows in the buildup process. This is not pretty work, as I understand it. Most likely it will have a lot of serious streaks that will later be smoothed out by a flap-disc or other process such as a surface grinder. The surface grinder machine is a exact time consuming process that I will not be using...for many reasons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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