Small swords

[FieryFurnace]

I'm not talking about a 10-inch long sword. I'm talking about a reall Small Sword.
Like this!
http://www.coldsteel.com/smallsword.html

I've searched the pages of the sword-forum and haven't found any threads on Small Swords. Who's made them? Pictures?

This isn't an "I started blacksmithing last week and now I wanna make a SWORD," type thread. I've been a member for four or five years and I've posted two or maybe three threads asking about swords. I tried once VERY early on to make a sword and failed. Plus, I'm a blacksmith, not a blade or swordsmith.

I would like to be able to forge swords, but it is not all I want to do. I like swords, but I didn't start blacksmithing so that I could make a sword.

So I've got a couple of questions about Small Swords.
A Small Sword has no real edge, but has a triangular blade that tapers down to a point.
It has a bit of spring so that it won't break, but it needs to be stiff enough so that the point can be used successfully!
The sides of the triangular blade are fullered or hollow.

With that established, how would one be forged?
My guess would be to get your stock shaped into square, pretty close to the finished thickness. Then to use a V-block die to shape the triangular blade. (V-block on bottom, flat die on top.)

Next, how is the fullered or hollow sides formed? My guess would be to use the V-block on the bottom while driving a radius die lengthways down the blade on top.

Does the guard need to be other than mild steel? If so, what material? I was thinking some pretty fine chasing and reppousse would look awesome.

OK, blade material? Cutting through all the technicalities, could you use a coil spring? OK OK! I know the arguments against using spring steel for anything. No one knows the stresses that a given spring was put under previously. It could fail at any given time. OK look, how often do springs fail on vehicles? Seriously! Uhhh like hardly ever!
Besides from that, a Small Sword needs to have a stiff spring to the blade. Isn't that what a coil spring is? A stiff spring?

I have no idea what the temper would be. I would start by trying a bronze in the meat of the blade and then go with a blue color towards the tip. I've never done any really technical tempering though.

If you were to just go out and purchase the absolutely ideal material for a Small Sword, what would it be?

Just food for though. I highly doubt I'll be forging any Small Swords anytime soon. Just being curious!

[ThomasPowers]

Temper is backwards: Blue temper in the blade for springiness and bronze temper at tip for piercing.

How often do springs fail? Quite a bit evidently given how many cracks I've found using used material. Can you source the same alloy new or nearly new?

A lot of the stiffness of the small sword blade is in their geometry.

Cut steel hilts were quite popular at one time so mild steel guard should be fine.

As for the shape they probably start with a drop forged or rolled blank and finish by grinding.

If I had my druthers for an alloy I'd probably look into one known for lack of bowing during hardening, hmmm might check A2.

[MLMartin]

I am not sure if it would be ideal for a sword but W1 can be ordered from Mccmaster carr. 5/8 inch round 3 foot long for 13.75. I know it works well for a short knife, never tried a sword

[WmHorus]

I think they are called Epee's if I remember correctly....

[Lenaghan]

I wouldnt know how to forge a triangle blade, but I guess thats very tapered so I'd only forge maye the first foot like that, then forge the rest of the shape and just grind the bevels in. Also the last 1/3 of the blade will be so thin its gonna lose heat fast, careful not to work it too cold I know the urge to give it those couple last hits!

Cold steel site says 22 oz. thats everything so you wouldn't need much steel, any spring shops around you where you could get a new off cut?

also keep in mind car springs arn't an 1/8 thick and bending as much as a swords required too..

[Dodge]

There is/was a member on IFI that used to post his miniatures. Until he explained their size, or noticed a coin or other size reference, one would swear they were full sized. I don't recall his name, but I'm pretty certain he hailed from Italy...

[Steve Sells]

A2 and L6, are both good choices for the Epee. Don't expect any serious governing body to approve them for tournaments or sparing, but for show and looks... go for it.

Dave I have watched your progress from noob to journeyman smith with what I can only call amazment. You have done well, and from what your work shows, you have a lot more in your first 4 years than I did in mine. If you wish to branch out into ANY advanced feild of smithing, you are ready. Do not let anyone say you have not paid your dues, because your current level of workmanship proves you have.

If your area requires signatures of smith to offically be called journeyman, I will have to spend a day in the forge with you first, but I will sign happly. :) you have nothing to apologize for to any one.

[FieryFurnace]

Thanks for all of the great replies!
Thomas:
I guess if my head had been screwed on straight, I'd have realized the temper guess was backwards. LOL So if I would have tried my first idea, the point would have fish-hooked and the blade would have snapped! :(
I've gone through a few springs and haven't found any cracks....but you've probably gone through a heck of a lot more than I have!

ML martin:
That's not a bad price for known material seeing that a coil spring costs me $10 and a whole lot of bugging the scrap guy to get them for me.

WmHorus: I don't spend a whole lot of time researching blade terminology or anything so I could be wrong. However, to my understanding, an Epee is a medium stiff grade of fencing weapon used for practice and training. A Short Sword is a lethal weapon and has a more hefty blade. (Comparitave to an Epee.)

Lenaghan: You are correct! It is a tapered blade. A single size V-block would not work....maybe! I don't know! That would take some experimenting! Good point though! You also make a good and valid point about the bending that coil spring material is engineered to handle.

Steve: Thanks a ton! Just a day in the forge??? :( How about a week?????????????????
I don't think bladesmithing is my thing, but it doesn't mean I don't want to know how and be capable of turning out a good blade occasionaly.

What are other applications of A2 and L6. (like for tools?) I never buy any specialty steels. I've got leaf and coil spring, bush hog and lawn mower blades, sucker rod. The only special stuff I have is 4140 that I got super cheap but it's big (2-inch square,) and 1-inch round drops of S-7 that someone gave me. Before I bought a special steel I'd probably do one out of spring to see if I could.

[FieryFurnace]

OUCH! $51 for 3 feet of 1/2-inch square A2! OUCH! LOL

[basher]

small swords are by no means simple swords . they have some of the most complicated geometry of all sword types. Some of them having blades that are V shaped (like angle slightly flattened angle iron).they are extremely thin as well sometimes with blade section in the sub 2mm range.
I do not unfortunately have measurements for any because although I have handled quite a few originals, they are not really my main area of interest.
There is a great selection of small swords in st paul in the oakshot collection .
These are super lite blades in the hand they feel like an extension of your finger .
I would suggest 5160 as a material or whatever your best available new spring stock would be.
The small swords I have seen had the trickiest sections to forge and grind of all the swords I have handled and would require specialist swages and an awful lot of skill to make. I am certain I could make one but would assume quite a few failures on the path to my first acceptable blade.

[brian.pierson]

Dave,

I think you have the skill to start a sword and I think the mind to continue to learn from any mistakes made. You are right the epee is a fencing sword today but WmHorus is right also as the fencing weapon and the name is from the dress/court sword (fr: épée de cour or dress sword). There are various styles of dress sword through the years, but with you interest in ACW, the triangular blade is probably the shape you should look at. Take a quick look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_sword

Having an interest in history, the project interests me so good luck and let us know how it goes.


Brian Pierson

[FieryFurnace]

I don't know of any local new spring stock suppliers here. I'd have to call around. McMaster sells a 6 foot piece of 1.25 x .25-inch rectangular stock for $35.00 plus shipping. I'd have to forge that down to square under the power hammer before I could start forming. However, it would leave me plenty of practice stock! LOL I'd certainly need it!

I followed that wiki link! So far as I know, the regulation swords for Civil War officers did not have triangular blades. I got to handle an original non-regulation, officer's sword once. The site of the first baptist church in the town we used to live in, was the site of a confederate hospital. The building that the hospital was in was torn down, and a sword was found beneath the steps. It was a non-regulation sword. It did not have a triangular blade, but was extremely light. There were initials scratched on the blade and a very unique hilt design. Later on I saw a picture of an unidentified Confederate officer carrying a sword with a hilt that looked just the same as the one I'd handled. It made me wonder, but I couldn't find any info on the officer.

I'm thinking that the blade could be forged square, and then using the progressively smaller sized V-blocks in my swage block, I could forge it down pretty close. Then fuller. Then grind the rest of the way.

Interesting discussion so far!

[ThomasPowers]

Let me phrase it another way "OUCH my blade came out like a corkscrew in heat treat after I spend 50-100 hours working on it and then broke when I tried to straighten it---boy that $50 for a piece of A2 sounds DIRT CHEAP right now!"

You may want to prove in some of your ideas about methods and tooling on cheaper metal but when you are going for the gold the extra cost often saves you time and effort many times over!

[FieryFurnace]

Let me phrase it another way "OUCH my blade came out like a corkscrew in heat treat after I spend 50-100 hours working on it and then broke when I tried to straighten it---boy that $50 for a piece of A2 sounds DIRT CHEAP right now!" You may want to prove in some of your ideas about methods and tooling on cheaper metal but when you are going for the gold the extra cost often saves you time and effort many times over!

A long time ago, I made a dagger from a small file. I left the file grooves down the center wich made a neat decoration. I filed and sanded and filed and sanded. I looked great! A little court dagger fit for the bravest knight in the court. Well, I heated it and quenched it in water to harden. (Didn't know I was supposed to use oil!) It came out shaped like a snake a warped and everything. Not knowing what else the water did to the steel I tried to straighten it by hand.....I ended up with two pieces. I've kept that as a reminder. I need to frame it and put it in the shop.

Whenever I have enough knowledge of technique, tooling, and finishing to turn out a good blade, I'll certainly pay up and get the good material.

I always appreciate your posts Thomas. Informative, helpful, and to the point. I know some people take it the wrong way sometimes, but regardless of how blunt it may sound, I know that you are offering your knowledge, time, and assistance, and I really do appreciate it!

[Mark Wargo New2bs]

One source of new spring steel would be as drops from a spring shop.

[basher]

grinding is going to be a much much easier way of getting a triangular blade. I would ht in the tapered round or tapered flat and then grind post HT. however the small swords I have handled were not triangular section they were V section like a piece of flattened Angle Iron.
a triangular non equilateral blade will warp during normalisation and HT.

[ThomasPowers]

The reason I post so much is it seems like I've made all the mistakes myself in the last 30+ years of smithing a lot of odd stuff!---or seen them done by others. I figure that nobody has time to make *all* the mistakes and so if they can learn from what others have done in the past they can get on to fresh and new mistakes!

I know my apprentice sure has profited by my history---as I recall his first blade was at least straight!

[Wes C.]

Interesting topic. Several years ago, when I was still active in my forge/knifeshop, I built a hydraulic/air powered rolling machine with different dies, to roll out blade blanks. Here are a few photos and one photo is one flattened diamond profile dagger made using this machine. I had made flat dies for reducing thickness and fullering as well as a set to roll the hollow triangle shape mentioned in this thread. Had some fun with those but never actually finished a smallsword blade. I was past 60 when I got the machine working and the hammering and squeezing tongs became too much for my hands. The machine weighed around 900 lbs and had a 1hp electric motor turning a 60:1 geabox, for a rolling speed of 29fps. The hyd cylinder was a 25 ton double action, converted to single action - used the large spring for a quick return and air over hydraulic foot control. I found it worked pretty well but if I had to do again, Id' use a 2 or 3hp motor for the rollers, as the hydraulic cylinder would stop the roller if I got in a hurry. The traingular smallsword blade was, in my opinion, the apex of the swordsmiths art - form, function and very strong for the weight. I have one example in my modest collection and it is such a fine blade( made around 1750 to 1770).