basher Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 have you thought about pressing or hammering formers into mild steel blocks? you would only be able to get one side with dished , spoons etc due to the deformation of the other side but It would certainly be possible and is what i would do if I wanted spoon formers (posaibly not as neat as you would want. or purchasing the readily available american hardy tools and having them shipped over in flat rate boxes unless you are looking for a whole block because you like the idea of one ,and if thats the case there is nothing wrong with that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Hello Owen, I’ve considered many other options and, unsurprisingly, have come to the conclusion that the best tool for the job is that designed specifically for it. Certainly hardy tools are cheaper to ship over than blocks, but they add up and still would not have the utility of a block; however, they are like the US spring swages, tempting. I admit, I really do like the idea of a block; but not due to a weird tool-fetish (not much, anyway), it is mainly because it will do all the jobs I want to do now, maybe some in the future too, and I think there should be one available here in the UK. If the casting plan proves to be a no-go - and I really hope that it will come off - my second choice is importing, probably on a commercial basis. Regards, G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I still think that for the number of parts that you are looking to do, a machine shop with a VMC could knock them out at a good price. No rigid pattern, but a program that is easily adjusted for sizes, no foundry-just clamp the billet on the table and push start. Just my opinion, but for the amount of time spent dealing with the foundries, you could have had them made already. If I was going to make one, I could whittle one out on my manual mill , and dress it up with a die grinder, but for multiples a VMC would make short work of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 i will ask my friend who has a very well stocked machine shop if its the sort of thing he would be interested if you like giles - but if youre thinking commercially ( i agree - there should be this thing available in uk ) then casting comes into its own... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Yes, for numbers casting is the way. I was not thinking about this commercially to start with (and for those who were up for it from the start, I still am not, blocks at cost to you!) but as I have seen probable costs rise, it seems the only way - whether via production here or importing. Not sure what sales would be like e.g. per year, but once a casting set-up is made even small runs should be economic... I hope. Still waiting for replies from foundries. Beth, if it comes to importing - and if I can't get what is missing on an imported block done locally - I'll come back to you regarding your friend's machine shop, thanks for the offer. (It looks like you got that cone, happy with it?) G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 giles - not picked it up yet!!! im sure i will be Very Happy with it though, ive just always wanted one :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Have you looked into foam casting? Some companies are casting parts using styrofoam patterns that are left in the packed sand. The molten metal vaporizes the foam with no residue. This allows complex parts to be cast without the problems of using traditional patterns. No draft needed, and all surfaces can be utilized easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Biggundoctor (I don't know your name), thanks for that - until your post I had not heard of foam casting. A quick web search show it is similar in principal to lost wax, but the model evaporates as the liquid metal is added, not before as in the wax process. A simple and very good idea, I shall look into this once the working week starts. I know a chap who makes surfboards using such foam, we call is polystyrene over here, and he has the wires etc. used for shaping it. Certainly good for one-offs; if models can be produced easily it could even be good for multiples. Thanks again. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Good news: I have discovered a foundry that will turn out blocks at a cost which is much closer to my original estimates. The chaps there are very helpful and we are now looking at the production of a pattern. Lost-foam casting is an option but, obviously, that is more for one-off jobs than anything else. Nonetheless, if anyone out there knows of an economical firm / method for mass-producing polystyrene shapes in the UK, please let me know; I have carried out a web search and have not found any options (all the companies I came across would not be keen on a small production run, i.e. less than thousands). G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 My head is spinning with finalising the design of the block before going to the pattern maker next week. The pattern maker has advised that, after seeing him and discussing the plans / drawings, I should spend at least another week considering them before having the pattern made. That is certainly good advice; and after seeing him I shall put a brief description of the plan on IFI. I have a couple of spaces on the draw faces - the block's sides - which are unnecessarily blank. I don't want to 'crowd' the features on the block, but neither do I want to waste space. So... Any suggestions about what could go in these spaces? I don't see the point in reproducing what comes on a standard block so forget about right angled triangles, half-hexagons and half circles. Any use for sixty degree triangles, half-octagons etc.? Shapes and ideas with dimensions please. Thanks, G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 what about half cones? I've seen a couple of swage blocks with tapered half round grooves ini them and thought they might be handy for certain things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 19, 2011 Author Share Posted November 19, 2011 Dave, I have got a couple of half-cones on a side already (as written above I will list features after seeing the pattern maker), my use for them is for crusie lamps and grisset pan ends, I am sure you are right and other uses could also be found for them. The block will be 4" thick; the half-cones I have in mind will be no more than 3" high and 1.5" across base, exact dimensions still to decided. What do you think of 60 degree triangle recesses? Of use or pointless? The thing is, once you start thinking so many ideas come... I'll p.m. you to see what you think of a couple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 24, 2011 Author Share Posted November 24, 2011 Update as promised. A bit long. Today I visited my pattern-maker. He told me that my design is fine for casting, but I need to provide more detailed cross-sectional figures for asymmetrical recesses such as spoons. I shall. Due to a job that must be completed in December, work on my pattern can’t be started until just before Christmas; I’m not in a great rush and the waiting period fits with earlier advice of waiting a while after settling on a design, just to be sure I remain happy with it. Once made it can’t easily be altered. As for design... first I say this: having looked at every block I can, in person and online, I think the biggest problems / mistakes with blocks are: 1) Trying to fit too many features, leading to thin bits of cast metal vulnerable to stray hits & knocks. 2) Not considering the main direction of hammer blows when using a given feature. 3) Including many features that have only one purpose (I confess to one such feature). 4) Not leaving space for the owner to customise his block later with additional features. I have kept these in mind and I think have done fairly well; the block will not suit everyone, but it should satisfy many. The features I have settled upon (at the moment) are: Inclined planes at various angles to assist with box / shovel forming etc. A corner-shaped recess to allow accurate / simpler box making. Three sizes of spoon recess; with varying degrees of dishing. Four circular recesses of differing size and depth, to allow dishing / ladle making etc. A heart recess (single use feature) – to enable me to recreate Eighteenth Century sweet-moulds. Three half-cone recesses of differing height, shape and angle. (straight & curved sides) A large curved recess which has an increasing radius along its length. (Think running shoe swoosh shape) Each corner differently radiused for a 'range' of right-angles (...???... all ninety degrees, but you know what I mean.) A leaf vein pattern. That’s the lot for the moment; I am considering a couple of other textures such as chequering (as on a rifle’s pistol grip) and stippling. As before any brilliant suggestions for different features will be gratefully received. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 Can the casting process of the foundry you are using resolve a leaf vein, checkering, or other texture pattern? Sounds pretty cool. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 i might be totally wrong but instinct says leave the texturing and vein off - surely the texturing particularly the rifle stock checkering would be impossible to do this way over a large surface, wouldnt it need to be applied from the top with a tool? just thinking out loud... the rest sounds very cool giles.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Phil, the foundry has told me that they use sand with a max. grain size of 600 microns; this is their medium-grained sand, finer sand with a max. grain size of 300 microns could also be used. The recesses for the leaf-vein pattern will have depths / widths of around 2mm (about 1/16“); I’m yet to decide on an exact depth and will experiment to find what works best. I am also yet to decide on the profile of the recess, i.e. whether to have a rounded or ‘V’ cross section. Any thoughts? Beth, the texture(s) will / would each be over areas of perhaps 1.5” x 2.5”, in the corners of the block – blank areas because I have avoided placing features near to the corners (to avoid weakness); they will be cast, not machined, and recessed rather than proud. Having seen the foundry’s work and having discussed the matter with the pattern-maker, producing these textures to a good resolution is not difficult. My intention is not for them to be used for patterning large areas, but for grips on handles and the suchlike. If a yellow heat is taken a large faced hammer or flatter can be used to force the texture on to the metal – single sided though, obviously. The patterned areas would not interfere with any other feature and – being very shallow – could be ground off if they annoyed you. Including them on the pattern involves no extra cost and effort, it also utilises a space that can’t be used for a deep feature (avoiding weakness). I should have added three more points to my last post: 1) Block size will be 10”x10”x4”; 2) one of the half-cone recesses will be 11”, but in three lengths (4”, 4” & 3”) to allow it to fit on the side of the block; 3) that the three spoon sizes will allow for any number of spoon sizes to be made from 4.5” down, since they and the cones can be used to shape them. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 ah i see no they wouldnt annoy me at all - on the contrary, i just wondered how good they would be for putting texture on something - but i can see for one hit small areas like you say, they would be great. not at all annoying!! good work giles, any ideas of prices yet?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Price is up at least 25% from my original estimates, this is because the block is 25% bigger and so uses 25% more metal. Weight will be around 3/4cwt or 40kgs. (Shipping price with pallet within the UK = about £40) The size is a compromise between weight, price, strength and space for features. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 Just back from the foundry I’ve chosen to cast the blocks, a very interesting & educational visit. I’m pleased to write that it is all good news: they can cast to the design – and definition – that I’m planning and will do so in small batches. The patterning looks to be alright, but I’ve decided to forget about chequering / crosshatching in favour of a set of parallel lines which can be used to achieve the same effect at any angles to suit the user. Also, I was given a demo’ of how strong SG iron of various thicknesses is & was very impressed; it will allow a couple more features if they're wanted or an increase in size of a couple of others (e.g.lengthening the long varied-radius curve). So, before I give final instructions to the pattern-maker – which will be after next week – any more suggestions? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 all sounds good I can't think of anything else, but I'm sure you or one of the other artistic types will come up with something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Can't wait to see the finished block! Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 me neither! so cool :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John B Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 So, before I give final instructions to the pattern-maker – which will be after next week – any more suggestions? G. Maybe leaf veining patterns in different sizes, grooved or raised ? For those who like to use them rather than fullering in the veins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 picture of the pattern? and the details of the shapes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted December 1, 2011 Author Share Posted December 1, 2011 John, leaf veins are included; I have given them some thought:There are two general patterns of leaf vein: (a) those that have pairs of side-veins coming off a central vein e.g. oak or chestnut; (b)those that have several long veins that radiate from a single base e.g. sycamore or field maple. (And others that combine both patterns, e.g. ivy!)Despite the undoubted strength of SG iron, I still think recessed veins are a better option for the block. If the recessed veining I have cast is too narrow for a user’s taste, it can easily be widened by filing / careful grinding; a raised vein could only be widened via welding on extra metal – more difficult and time consuming.To allow both vein patterns to be formed I’ve decide to include a general side-vein pattern on a main face and a long single vein on one side – allowing maple-type veins to be formed by rotating a leaf using its base as an axis. The degree to which a leaf’s veins will stand out will, of course, depend on how hot the metal is and how hard it is struck; another benefit of recessed patterns could be that the raised veins produced can be beaten themselves or ground back if thought too high. Jeremy, no pattern yet; as I’ve written above, my final designs will go to the pattern-maker in a week or so and I should have the pattern in my hands in the early New Year, casting starting soon after that. As for details of shapes, they have been listed earlier; however, following from my last post (having being shown just how strong SG iron really is) I am minded to add another feature or two or increase size of some others. Expect a final list with dimensions at the back-end of next week. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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