GNJC Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hello all, Considering the cost of getting decent 'custom' swage blocks from the US (I have been unable to find any here in the UK), I have decided to look at the option of designing and having one cast for myself. Obviously, costs come down with numbers, so is anyone else interested? I have discussed this with Beth and she is keen, so that's two of us (I'll have two myself, so that's three blocks so far). My main interest is making old cooking kit so the block will have both circular and ovoid / spoon shaped cuts. Any other reasonable suggestions as to other shapes that could be cast into it are welcome. I will make the pattern, or have it made if designs are beyond me. As a guess it would be something like 9"x5"x4", give or take an inch in each dimension according to need. Ductile iron seems the obvious choice of material, but I am happy to be advised of a better choice (keeping in mind both utility and cost). This would be entirely not-for-profit, and once a critical mass is attained it would be a case dividing the overall cost by the number interested and then of sending payment in and getting the casting done. Having written that, I am prepared to subsidise the pattern making if it proves necessary. I am a lawyer (or was) and am happy to provide fully refundable receipts etc. as a guarantee of getting the blocks; Payment would only be required once everything is ready - but I will not accept promises before the casting, if you want one you'll have to pay up front. Well, there it is, I am awaiting some rough costings and will post them as and when I get them. Hope to hear from someone soon, please post on this thread rather than PM me - I want everyone to be aware of ideas and progress. Thanks in advance fo any help or advice offered, G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Have you looked at the blocks that the Saltfork Craftsmen and Artist Blacksmith Assoc. has for sale? This may be an option if you can't get enough to reach the critical # http://saltforkcraftsmen.org/ I have had one for several years and really like it. You will need to do some cleaning as they come straight from the foundry but it is minor sanding for the most part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dablacksmith Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 another option is to forge some blocks .... if you know anyone with a bigger hammer or press it is possable to forge shapes into fairly thick material (say 2 in or so) stock in oval and even spoon shapes . ive used several of these with a shank welded on to fit into hearty hole and they work well...just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hello Thomas, Yes I have seen those blocks, they are good and the work necessay to use them is not a problem... but, despite the very reasonable price, the cost of getting one here (65lbs = ~30kgs to the UK) and the duty/tax payable makes it expensive. A friend who is in the airline business may bring me one from the US sometime, if I am lucky. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 thanks for that giles - yeah i had imagined i would forge them originally, it shouldnt be too much to ask should it? giles i reckon thats definately the cheapest way anyway... i would like ladle and spoon shapes. could we forge the shapes as best we can, then finish with grinder bits - mine dont need to be Absolutley Perfect... that might be the best place to start and if they are rubbish, then think about getting something cast... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 I've been thinking about the same things myself. Was planning to forge some spoon shapes into heavy stock, but would have to arrange a day with a friend with a big hammer (though I'm sure I could do something with some rough shapes made by drilling/grinding and then tidying with a form pressed in by flypress or sledge hammer). Up til now I've just free formed spoons into a lump of oak, it works fine but the results are pretty rustic! if a ready made swage for ladles and spoons were available here hten I would certainly be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hi, Beth, for a one (or two) off I agree with you that forging or - with access to the right machinery - machining is the way to go. But it is not easy to do well and I'm sure that there are others who would want one. If the quotes I get aren't too much I may even get just a couple done. If you aren't so keen on the casting plan, fair enough my misunderstanding. By the way, for anyone interested, for a Salt Fork block to get here in thr UK from the US would mean an all in cost of £250+ depending on courier (the cheapest I've found is DHL at just under £150). With regard to that figure, and looking at the cheapest swage block (not for spoons etc. though) from Vaughans - 9"x9"x3" - at £166+VAT+shipping, if the price can be kept low enough I think it is no-brainer! G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 Just seen your post Dave, very encouraging. I, too, have been dishing over swage block holes and improvised stakes, not ideal. Are there any special shapes you would want and where in the UK are you? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian.pierson Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 All, take a look at this seller on US Ebay. She has several bowl swages that clamp into a vise. There is a spoon swage also. I don't know what it would take to get a set to the UK but it might be a start or possible replacement for a full blown block. I have her hammer/hawk drifts and they do work well. Just thought I would throw it out there. http://www.ebay.com/sch/beckleydt55vem/m.html?item=270840843069&viewitem=&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1123&_trksid=p4340.l2562 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Is there something like the USPS "flat rate box" where if it fits, and it is under a rather generous weight (70#), it is a flat price to ship in the UK/Europe? Design to meet this criteria to get better shipping rates if they do. The Saltfork block does not fit, which is part of the high shipping charges, but the block was designed before the flat rate box system. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Why cast them? Go to a local machine shop, and have them machined out of a block of steel. If they have a CNC machining center they can make a pocket any size you want by adjusting the program percentages. If your spoons are the same shape, but different sizes this is easy on a CNC. A lot less hassle than casting, and having to make different molds, adjustments for casting shrinkage, etc. Even a standard manual mill with a ball endmill in it can work a pocket out that would need minimal dressing with a die grinder. You could have one machined out by the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Budd Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Just seen your post Dave, very encouraging. I, too, have been dishing over swage block holes and improvised stakes, not ideal. Are there any special shapes you would want and where in the UK are you? G. mostly I'm making eating spoons from teaspoon to desert spoon sizes, sometimes rounded sometimes spoon shaped (basically it depends on how burnt the hollow in the bit of wood I'm using as a swage!) but I may make some small ladels too. I think unless a cast swage for them is cheap enough I might be best off making them the hard way as I probably only need a couple or three bowl shapes. Mind you, if you have the tools there then you are more likely to make things that use them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 i dont mind a casting plan at all, but i know its quite a fiddle even for something simple (unless we are doing the casting ourselves..... ) i will certainly keep an eye on if you get enough people to make it doable - but like you said yourself, not worth it just for a few... would love to see pictures of you guys spoons/ladles so far, i have not made one would really like to see what you have made? :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Biggundoctor has a good point especially if you are making a limited run, and possibly for a prototype. A block can be drawn up in any of a number of CAD packages easily. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 27, 2011 Author Share Posted October 27, 2011 Hmm, I'm not trying to push these blocks, just looking for an easy / economical way of getting one that will do what I want and, if possible, help out a few other people too. The CNC option is possible, if only for a pattern; I have a friend who can do the CAD bit. I must admit I have not contacted any local firms about prices, but I suspect that it is not going to be cheap. It still amazes me that there is not one for sale over here, esoteric maybe, but still in demand. G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 yes im amazed too giles - its weird. not even any second handers.... its this silly little land of ours, you can get em everywhere else! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astro_Al Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 GNJC - I can recommend Sandawana Castings Ltd near Oxford. They are doing some bits for me as we speak (type). Last time I was there, one of the guys showed me around the plant. They're not fussed about doing small batches or one-offs for sensible money.. Why forge the mould? Just get a lump of wood and sand / carve / grind it out to shape. Smooth it off conscientiously afterwards, possibly using a resin or filler, and you're good to go. Shrinkage isn't an issue as you can either factor it in when you make the pattern (do it slightly oversize), or just accept what comes out of the foundry, since it is arbitrary anyway. Good luck, Al. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Before getting too particular on the mold talk to a mold maker at the foundry about how it would be cast, and the standard cope/drag they use, pricing, attachment of risers/sprue so you have a better/easier time finishing and grinding. It may cost less (delivered to your customer) to make smaller "A" and "B" blocks than a single larger block. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 28, 2011 Author Share Posted October 28, 2011 Hello all, Right, I have been in contact with half a dozen assorted foundries and CNC machine shops. (Sandawana is one of them Al, but thanks for that.) Casting is the most economic option, even for just one and that is including a pattern. As I wrote above, I will subsidise the pattern making. A rough unit cost should be about £100 a piece (not including delivery to you). I am yet to finalise a design so that price could come down depending upon size and design. With regard to design, the closest I have seen to what I want are the Greenwood blocks shown in the gallery at Link removed at the request of Anvilfire.. But they are not perfect (what is?), and assuming it will keep costs down the edges could be left blank. Anyone interested? G. Phil: I’ve looked at the two-block option; it has no price benefit here with the chaps I’ve spoken to, but you are quite right in re’ sprues etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 I'd be interested if the block had some"shovel" shapes for companion sets? Not sure if the spoons would be so much use to me, but having said that, if I had the tool, it might inspire me! Thanks for the link to that swage block site, I have two blocks, one standard kind, one I have just discovered as being the "carron" shipyard swage block and had no idea what it was, was told it was a wheelrights block when I bought it in Scotland. Nice to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Colleen, I've no objection to including them and it will increase the utility of the block. What sort of sizes would you want the shovel depressions to be L x W x D approx.? Presumably two would be enough. I have an idea to incorporate them... they could be fitted in but, to make the most of the space available, would probably need to have other shapes within them (not too large). I think that as long as this 'inner' shape is well away from the edge of a shovel depression - in the middle of its flat part - it would not effect any shovel being forged since there is no need to 'shape' the central flat part other than to keep it flat on the anvil's face. What do you think? G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Yes, two would be plenty I think! Only if everyone else agrees that they might be useful, I know some people probably have shovel shapes already in swage blocks, so don't redesign only on the request of myself! I always end up doing quite boring flat topped shovels as I just fold the shapes, but would be nice to have some rounded ones. Much prettier! I can see how what you are suggesting might work, say a smaller spoon depression on the flat of the shovel bit? I wonder if that has been tried before? I suppose if a blow while shaping from the "top" shape were to pick up the impression of it, it could soon be flattened again? I can see that it might pick up the impression of it on the "backside"... I think it might depend on the skill to not bash it in the middle too much!! Might be good to try that first in wood or something before trying that out in a final casting.If it did work well, it would be great, I love things that save space and have more than one use, I think most of us do! Does having shapes in the sides increase the price dramatically? Is that because it complicates the casting process? You could possibly slot the two shovel shapes on two sides? It would be interesting to see what you have designed so far. Oh here I go, now you got me started with my wish list for the "perfect" swage block, which is crazy, because I think for every blacksmith you'll find a different variation of "the perfect" swage block! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzonoqua Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Oh yes, and dimensions, 100mm to 120mm by 80mm to 100mm ish?? by 10mm to 20mm deep, that is just off the top of my head. would have to be standard sort of sizes i think for maximum useability, and however they might fit in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick maxen Posted October 29, 2011 Share Posted October 29, 2011 Giles, I would be interested in one of these. I am not worried about postage as we are in the same county. Mick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GNJC Posted October 29, 2011 Author Share Posted October 29, 2011 Colleen, Thanks for the dimensions, I shall start playing around with locations. I'll try and fit in two sizes, but - and I have to think in 3D, i.e. how close depressions are to others on other faces - if that is too hard I shall use a size somewhere between the two you have given. I think that anyone used to hammering will be fine with another shape in the midst of the shovel depression (a plug could be made if there was a real problem, but I doubt there will be). The perfect swage block... it can't exist! However, I only intend to do this once so I want this block to be very strong and for that reason I have decided that the depressions should - as far as possible - be no closer than an inch to one another or to an edge. Some will say that we could have more shapes if they were closer; true, but a stray blow to a flat will do little harm, whereas a blow to a ridge separating hollows (or a hollow from an edge) could do real damage. The block can’t get bigger than 10”x7”x5” for reasons of cost and convenient weight, so surface space will be used very carefully Side shapes, hmm, I have never cast anything before so am unsure at the moment. On Friday I sent some images for foundries to get an idea what is planned and to be able to answer that question. Simply, if it is a big price increaser, it won’t happen unless there is a general agreement that it should. My limited understanding of the casting process tells me that since there will be no through-holes, only depressions, it should not be too much of a problem. But remember, I am currently very ignorant about this sort of thing. Thanks for that Mick, the more the better, that’s six of us now, so I think it is going to happen, which is a good thing. Whereabouts are you? I’m to the West of Hemel Hempstead. Regards, G. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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