bigfootnampa Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Jake I think Thomas is just a little nervous since our pal Frosty got into it with his birch and she just about barked his head off. He was in the hospital for a long time! Maybe best to avoid the heavier ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 Ah,so that's what Thomas meant,i see now.Well,no worries,because i'm known(and feared)far and wide hereabouts by my indian name:Dances with Chainsaws(actually the full version continues:"...on top of log wall,with his fly open and shoelaces undone",and even that is a tame,English version,you should hear how it sounds in Athapaskan!). Anyway,where was I?Yes,that new pile of iron-good stuff.Very good,actually,what little of it i've tried today. It was one of the chains,about 1/2" round stock. It's time that i get more serious about forging,as my time's running out,and i still didn't really get any of the more complex work done,or even planned. So,to start on that,and yest the limits of plasticity of the new batch of iron,i decided to try a quatre-foil(sp.?). The stuff really took an incredible amount of abuse.At each corner i made a faggot weld,and immediately tortured the fresh weld severely-fullered it off,peened it,and upset the fullered part into a "penny"-type shape over the anvil-corner,like you do balls. This particular shape,having several welds on the same,spindly stalk,has a tendency to vibrate awfully,and till the very last,throughout the welding and the bending both,is under severe destructive stress.It held,and i've only had one weld failure in the whole process. The idea that i'm hoping to pursue is a table-top candleholder,using the design vaguely based on that marvelous photo of Gloustershire cathedral ceiling that Beth so kindly provided.I've been staring at the photo for long periods,hoping that at least something will absorb. Not capable of thorogh planning/working to plan,i figured i'll start by experimenting with separate elements,and will try to evolve the general plan relative to how well i can execute the diverse parts. So,this is the first in the series. It still will need much finish work,but it's something to look at,while pondering the overall design.Like i've mentioned before,it'll be along the lines of a fragment of a gothic grill-work,reduced to a table-top size object,and i'm hiding behind a concept of usefullness(candlestick)as usual,to conceal my subversive activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Hello Jake, It seems to me from reading your thread here that Alaska is not getting you the renumeration your work so well deserves, and sometimes it seems survival is a question. If I am wrong , that's GOOD ! But if you would consider going to the lowest of the 48,...... here I go again sliding out on a thin limb,,,,,,, as I have had very poor luck choosing employees or tenants,,,,,,, come to the Bayou state. I can offer you space to work and "Man Cave". I am not asking for rent. You don't ask for wages. 2 coal forges, 1 whisper daddy, 3 anvils , Little Giant 100, tables , and tools in 6,400 sq ft high ceiling brick and steel building. 3,200 sq ft indoor parking , and junk room too. I will never go 50% 50% on any of my work, and I would not ask you to either. This market is good and the recession has missed us here pretty much. A smith or a tack welder could make it here,if he wanted to.I cannot stand dogs, sorry if you are a slave to one , I and my cats couldn't stand one. Just a thought Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 Rusty,that's extremely kind,and generous of you.Spoken in the spirit of true comradeship of craftsmen and people with common sense in general.I thank you most humbly. It's true that i could never make ends meet here as a blacksmith.My buddy Hanna,while taking the pertinent art biz.classes at the U. has once made this very complex calculation for me:It seems,that to be a real member of society(afford health insurance,and other basics),i'd need to make $37.48 an hour,40 billable hours a week(meaning 60-80 actual time,more?).That simply could NEVER happen here.Period. Meanwhile,something in me says that i need to lay my bones down in this here country,when the time comes.I've done my walkabout,this is my last stand. If i do in any way ok in the next few here,i'd love to travel,to visit you and other shops,learn something new,work in the company with others.I'd LOVE that!But i won't pull up my stakes ever again,too many highways,sleeping in doorways/eating out of garbage cans,from Paris and Madrid to 40+ states down south...I'll only travel now knowing that i,too,belong somewhere,too many memories of dining in soup kitchens with grizzled old bums,thinking even then,that's me,man,few years down the road...I've a shred of dignity here that i just can't part with. BUT:I'm Extremely happy that the things for metalworkers are looking up your way!RIGHT ON!!! I love your part of the country,too,what i've seen of it.And had a few Cajun friends in the past that told of such wonderful life down there,we'd all sit around listening,it was neat...God,this country is so huge,and beautiful,in so many interesting ways-awsome,quite literally! Thanks again so much! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Well the offer stands , and if there are any JOURNEYMAN smiths looking for the opportunity,do come. As a legit biz we could sponsor a legal immigrant, Please no beginners,,,I dont teach. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Thanks again,Rusty,and again,that is ever so cool that a guy can,this day and age,exist as a legit blacksmith-that really is heart-warming,hard to explain,but just is. By the way,you're in such a unique place,settled for so long,and with such strong Spanish and French influences,what do you see around for old work?And,does that colonial past affects ironwork around you,do you think,or you may as well be anywhere else in the US? And if it is present,some specific influences of the past,does it affect your own work,and/or the taste and mindset of your clients?(Sorry for so many questions,please feel free to disregard.BTW,i never managed to find any of your stuff in the galleries(i'm about worthless at comp.,plus the speed of the xxxxxx device),do you care to show something of yourn here,if i promised that i'll not interpret it as advertisement? ). I've nothing from the forge product-wise today,spent a scattered day making charcoal,and beating up the ram of my LG to make it give up the top bit(a friend's going to hardface/add to it to turn it from a fuller into a flat). Only banged out a quick copper imitation viking-period belt buckle.A friend dropped off this knife-switch blade out of the switch-box,it's 2"+ wide by 1/4",couple feet long.A hefty chunk of copper(would be perfect for a Tlingit-style cold-forged knife,them things are beautifull!But i don't cater to reproduction indian stuff much,the originators of design do plenty good job of it themselves ). Forged it at a low(3 psi)heat in the propane forge,forges like butter(literally ).I'd recommend it to beginners instead of Playdough(that i was always of two minds about anyway).Not sure that i needed to heat it at all,cold may've been just as good. Anyway,i've bootlegged these a few times before,a quick,easy,satisfying project(even done a few out of forge-welded motorcycle chain,and chainsaw chain,too,pretty cool spots...).AND,the silly things actually work,my buddy Drew wears his a few years now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Jake I do not have pics of my work in IFI gallery, shop pics , yes ," SMITHYS post by Joshua M. See my website WWW ARNOLDANVILBLACKSMITH . COM pityfull few pics of a whole career of work that was never fotograft, As for influences from the past, if there is, it is unconscious, I have had to do what clients wanted, and always under budget constraints. Repair welding , LOTS! But no ornamental iron, I have never welded a cast iron spearpoint to a piece of tubing yet, and wont. Last august I had a major operation to remove my right kidney, The cancer was caught in time and did not spread. That has slowed me down a lot, Really,I am only beginning to get back to work now. To have a real smith with me in this big shop would be great ! I have had tenants who did not work out . Employees who did not work. and students who stole my tools. None are there now.I have been fortunate with jobs, some very big corporate commissions, and all the local work I want to do. working alone seems to be my penance. I accept it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 hi chaps - i am returned back safe and sound you will no doubt be relieved to learn from my camping - have avidly read through your conversation, and have some comments.... jk - your comment about every blow mattering and having crucial effect on the work is something a very good blacksmith taught me a few years ago and something i try to Remember conciously - my mind tends to wander naturaly but with this work it is even more important to be aware of your actions with the hammer and the surface beneath the work... for me its key to something looking as i intended/hoped in my minds eye. i also wonder if you agree about Intention being quite a powerful force in whatever youre doing, to actively intend for something (visualise maybe?) to turn out a certain way i reckon goes a long way to achieving the desired effect. i once chatted to an oesteopath (particularly gifted intuitive one) friend of mine about this subjetc and im interested in it. he absolutely believed that was where his power to correct peoples bones lay. and he is very effective, whereas some are not so... as for the mental picture versus the drawn blue print, i agree with Danger that play must come into a creative 'work' and if it feels like a maths lesson at school, it may not be the best approach to drawing out personal images/shapes. lovely skill to have though - a time and a place i would say. i like to draw when im thinking about sculptures (not in iron - i have never made one in iron oddly) but its not so much a plan as a way of thinking about the shapes and seeing what comes out really. i would not really need to ever look at them again. i think f you work doing commisions a lot from drawings, then to practice going freestyle is a good discipline and brain stretcher - well worth the time possibley lost making something weird! is it useful to have the skill of improvising on the hoof too? i think so besuase in my world things never go quite to plan and i am happy to embrace something near to what my mental picture was. the result is often better anyway - and it would be a shame to miss out on that chance factor rusty - also must comment on your generous offer to jake - its very heart warming that people still offer genuinely - give me hope in the human race!!! and another thing i wanted to comment on - cant remember who said it -about shame you lot in usa dont have our history/skills etc, i would add to that, on the contrary, your history is very interesting to us over here and i am always astounded by the sheer numbers of people who are hobby back yard smiths over your way, just for the hell of it, not to earn a living.. it is my perception that america is a place where home made and do it yourself and make it yourself is alive and well and very strong in spirit. there can be a cynicism in uk (something to do with the constant rain??) where nobody can quite be bothered, its all a bit too much effort and anyway you can just go and buy it. a lot of recipes i want i can only get hold of from american sites too - i feel the same goes for cooking . i reckon all are equal and your range of bread recipes is astounding! jake - am so pleased you like staring at that lovely cieling - it is the oldest in existance i believe of that type and is about 650 yrs old..! truly beautiful. i will try to upload another couple, one of a new vaulted cieling made this time of oak as was sometimes done, but this one is new for a millenium project ( goodness knows the cost, but money WELL spent compared to the rest of the total and utter b*****ks that went on at the milenium in this country) it is in a cathedral in suffolk but i have not seen it myself... the cathedrals were i believe often painted like this... what do you think of the colored version? i will also upload the complete opposite but just as fabulous a tiny chapel on an island inhabited by the last few monks living there that i saw this week, very simple stone and wooden building but beasutifull layed out cobbled floor almost like a zen sand garden, the way the light fell into the door was trance like. and an absolute pleasure to walk on... also one small but celestial stained glass. color and beauty and Intent all around. and so peacefull!!! i simply love your go at the gothics shapes - it all has jakes mark - i know you will have fun playing with those arches - i cannot wait to see what you do next! ps jake - i love your scrap stash!!!!nice one my friend i may have to add the photos on next one its not offereing me the option.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 have done something silly here...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 maybe the photosdidnt work... i can ask my clever 12 year old - he will get them to not an annoying size - i do appologise if theyre massive - its intensely irritating..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Rusty,lots of great stuff on your site,thanks,really enjoyed looking at all the stuff.One does,somehow,get the feeling of an "Old World" ironwork from it,or "Older",anyway! As to your alone-ness,i can well relate.You know,a blacksmith,as a mythical figure,was always in the singular(even though in the past a bunch of people worked in the forge). But as a Myth,it was always "the Blacksmith and the Devil" type of a situation,which reflects the human condition in general...There's the tragedy,and the nobility of going it alone,all of it,in this,such a strange,Shamanic calling of ours! Beth,welcome back!!!Great to hear from you,and the MOST sincere thanks both for the Gloustershire photo and all that you can,possibly,post.Especially the stuff that appeals to you personally,as your comments on it are at least as important as the work in the pictures itself. It's all very special,for lack of more skill at expressing meself,and does things to one's head in terms of design. (I think that you may be posting some photos now,will try to see them,it's a PERFECT mindset to start a day forging-don't know how to thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Nothing but the code is showing so far-but i'm not worried,as i think of you as a "Woman of Infinite Resource and Sagasity",(having my youthful brain twisted by Kipling so thoroughly ) i know you'll figure something out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 ok try again new cieling old monks chapel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 jake - ps still need to sort the book for you - its really not the sort of thing you should buy yourself if you understand me - you have to kind of be passed it by some hippy or something ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 am having a thought that keeps coming into my head - dont shoot me down anyone!!! apologies , but...- im not SURE if forged steel works for me as a sculptural medium.... it works brilliantly and breathtakingly as a decorative medium and obviously a functional one but i more and more think it just is the wrong stuff for really 3d sculptures. for me. ... so it doesnt lend itself to describing the kind of things i like to make in the way i want to describe them. im not even sure ive ever seen a entirely forged sculpture that actually does it for me 100 percent... (thats not true - once on here i saw some sheet metal forged animal heads which took my breath away - dont know why but i loved them - new zealand i think the artist was from?? also that was sheet work - slightly different ) i suppose i think its perfect for flat planes of decorative work or slightly in and out of one plane, but when working in truly 3 dimensions im just not sure the material and method suit this ... have been confused about this for some time, and the two paths are slowly forking in my mind, forged metal for decorative panels (for instance) repousse relief work?and decorated or otherwise functional items, and something else for truly 3d (animals people etc for instance) .... i think possibley the best use of wrought metal sculpturally is in an abstract way...? but i dont like doing abstract stuff so thats no use to me..... what do you all think? just saying this for my own clarity really - no offence intended to those who love to do what i dont! subjectivity - its the beauty of all this stuff, i dont have to like yours, and you dont have to like mine and we can still be friends :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Oh,Sister Beth!Repent,prithee,before it's too late!For the god of Fe is a jealous God! And the sinners are wretched for eternity,and their forge-welds don't stick,no matter how perfect be their Scarfs... Beth,somehow what you say hits right at the heart of it ALL,the use of iron in any at all manner/application.This i sense with my antennae,rather than the old pea-brain of mine,and i think can best put it forth by means of a serries of questions. Can iron be used for artistic expression without the regard,the homage to it's "iron-ness"?(Can other media?To a larger or a smaller degree?). Can the expression itself be disembodied,divorced from the physical media that manifests it? Wether,and to what degree,iron helps the expressing by the artist,by contributing of it's own crystalline plasticity/texture/the process of forging itself,vs the opposite,interfering with the freedom of one'e expression by it's physical qualities/limitations? And if one uses it's "help",even massively capitalising on it,making it the point or one of,is it then Art? One thing is obvious right away is that these choices are so personal that any judgement from without on that account would rate your slapping the profferer of such with the flat of your training sword! All i know is that i lack the talent to use iron in a "conventional" 3-D way.But occasionally(VERY rarely),i do come across those that do a mighty fine job of it.Among my favorite i'd definitely list Christopher T.Ray,here's a link to some of his dementia:http://www.chrisray.com/mansect/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 oh brother jake forgive me....thats why my forge welds arent sticking!! too wretched and evil...... i like your use of your antennae jake ( it wont let me use the smiley faces.....) for me yes it is at the very heart of the matter... i dont think the material CAN be used to good effect without homage to its fundamental character traits.. i dont think you can disembody from the material even if you think thats what youre doing.. i need to think about this more - like i said im claryfying my own thoughts on this as we speak. as for me and my skill levels i think the iron interferes with artistic expression outside of decorative ( although it does that a bit!) i am not at one with the material in this way, and i think you need to be utterly at one with the material to be able to express yourself in any satisfying way. why does it work for functional/decorative then????? because it def inate3ly does.... yes your right its such a personal thing - and i would hate to offend anyone, and i repeatedly point out on here my lack of skill , i would only get out my sword to defend the few things i know to be right for myself, and would def not fight anyone about their oppinions! unless they wanted to for fun... and thats another thing altogether! and finally - you are of course correct - the sculptures of chris t ray are fantastic essecially like these... i would say though that aparts from the figure (which is splendid) these are not completely forged works (is the figure even) which was my point - i dont think moving a volume of metal alone without use of sheet and welding of some sort works quite as well. the forming of sheet metal hot or cold has to be slightly set different from forging stock and radically changing its surface area (is that how we would define it?) how would we define the difference...??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 what he manages to bring to that figurative pieced is a real touch of a human hand - it could have been made of clay and cast.... this is partly technique but partly his relationship to the material, and the product of a very intense relationship i would say. i also loved his photo archives, they really inspired me actually - i used to love doing that kind of thing and have not for so long. will start as of now! thanks for the link jake - i will study it in further detail - wish i could find him talking about his techniques.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dillon Sculpture Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 You all have been busy, don't you sleep Beth? Tom Joyce has some work that I feel crosses the line of material essence as well paint can also camouflage its base content. I have a few pieces at the powder coater that will go bone white for the specific reason to camouflage it's origin. Here is the torso of a 7' figurative piece I'm working on, forged from 6" and 3" bar, Cris Ray ROCKS! Jake, I enjoy this tread but still wonder with your knowledge and comprehension of artistic sensibilities, why do you hide behind function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 danger - in point of fact no i dont sleep very much! however hard i try..... i do go to bed though, am just a bit wakeful and im quite talkative. this thread suits me great - its like show and tell at shcool...except more interesting i just looked up your guy tom joyce - very interesting - talked about him working in a foundry and how that influenced his work _ you can see that influence. he also talks about how in a lot of ways casting is the blacksmiths nemesis... i would like to hear him talk a bit more, i agree with what he is saying and i do think the two concepts can meet somewhere... i like this one that is only forged.. his workshop also looks beautiful in the wonderful sounding santa fe - i always thought that must be a great place from a song i used to like - is it guys??? i wonder about what your sculpture would look like with powder coat - why do you want to camoflage the material danger? is it just for the totally different feel it will give the piece? but would you consider making it out of something else? and if not why not? as for jake and his skulking about hiding behind the functional, im nearly convinced that is EXACTLY where he should be with forge work, and maybe his wilder streak artistically should come out in another material? but im talking from my personal point of view of course. i would like to see jake sit down and free doodle with a biro pen, or do some dark scraggy charcoal drawings. it all feeds into the same thing in the end anyway...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 You guys are great,i really enjoy listening to you and thinking,better then talking myself...Beth,much of the method becomes apparent from just the outside-cuts,some forging,weldments...These artists are just "rolling with it",obviously,and i believe that is what Danger means suggesting listening to material. Michael,great torso!As a smith,i really appreciate it,have no idea what impresion it would make on anyone not of the iron-deformation-minded,but i love it! There's a Cowardly Musk-Rat,Chuchundra,in the Just So Stories,who's afraid to come out to the center of the room,but only skulks around the edges,that's me! I'll post a project i'm working on in a sec,but it's worst then ever-Kitsch-with-Functional-Pretences! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Here's a photo of a sketch of a door-handle escutcheon (i found this fancy,expensive lock-set that i'll buy,and throw away the face-plate.It's a skoocum mechanism,a mortise lock). I designed it wrong for iron/my skill with iron,and have failed forging a few elements.Then,a few days ago,i got a hold of that copper bar. The second photo is an experiment with it,of an element.That worked a bit better(lord,the stuff's forgiving!).The object itself i gave to the man who brought me the copper,it's of no consequence,other than information to me. The information is all-important.It showed me what's what,how close can i come to my own design as drawn,and add to the constant study of plasticity of metals in general,of course. Anyway,my point is:I'm in training,as we all are.There's time to study,and to practice,and time to apply the aquired knowledge.Possibly,my time to apply it may never come...I don't know. ALL that i have is the affinity with the material,my love for it.This love being requited is the next hurdle,and it's still undecided.Then...We'll see... I've two close friends,both professional artists,both produce much work,and teach,as well.They're different as night and day:One is a post-modernist painter,who holds the Creativity as a main point(Danger-like,in a way),the other is a most traditional,hide-bound watercolorist,finished two schools,and worships Method as a deity,the skill of painting,colors,subtlties of technique. I love them both,and when we drink wiskey together,really enjoy the conversation!!! :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 danger - i just had another look at your post, the torso - did i read it right is it 7ft tall?? it pretty heavy guage then?!! i honestly am not sure how to respond to it which is why i didnt straight away, i want to give you an honest critique, i love the areas that look like ball joints they work for me - i think the thing with the more abstracted work personally, is that i would need to get my hands on it and feel it and touch the different areas to respond to it fully - i can find abstract forge work very difficult visually to connect with other than in the fact that i can enjoy how it has been hit. what i like and enjoy about the dished in shoulder joints ( i think thats what they are?) is that they LOOK tactile, and so i can imagine very vividly touching those bits, and so i can connect. i dont know if that is the 'correct' response or more importantly the response you would like/expect/be pleased or otherwise with, from the viewer. ? i just looked on your gallery becasue im sure i remember seeing stuff of yours on here that i really did connect with and loved, but i get a bit mixed up with the names sometimes - could not see anything on your gallery though. is this the type of style you normally like to work in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beth Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 jake - kitsch with functional pretences! whats wrong with that?! (even if it were true?) i do like your drawing, you can obviously hold a pencil but then we did know that..... i like the element you made, i think its fab and if your mate uses it - then its definately classed as functional! Here are some semi-random images for anyone (sorry they are off piste as usual, theyre not actually,in my mind, but i realise its hardly Forgin Iron...sorry) i have only just got the hang of doing the whole upload a photo thing - and am still reeling with excitement even took two today when i was out with my daughter specialy with jake in mind - how cool is the internet? so, firstly, bit on top of tomb of catherine parr one of the wives of henry the 8th, just a little bit of stonework, thought of you jake, and also a piece of woodwork on the end of the pew, its only a tiny family chapel, but obviously they were top end church goers...! also a drawing i did that i SOLD! today (even if it was to someone i know) scuse bad shiny reflections here also is a lovely lovely sculpture done by a girl whose name i forget , who was at the garden of the chapel with henry the 8ths wife today, its about12 or 15 ft tall, and creeps round the wall. and finally - appologies but i love to hear all your views, a sculpture that i would love to go and stand by its up in scotland and i adore it, of a heavy working horse of which there used to be =many used round here. i just love this. thats it for now - over and out :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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