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I thought all the "stingy" smiths were gone....


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Mostly anyway..Ive ran into a couple of smiths lately who dont want to help a person with anythng..They are afraid that "someones gonna make something off them" or something they "think" they have invented :rolleyes: Really :blink:
I suppose they want to take thier "secrets" to the grave..They aint gonna, cause everyone who asked them has ended up coming to me :P Im more than happy to teach someone to weld..
I just dont understand the greed..

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If I in any way gave the impression that it was Amish smiths that I was referring to then I apologize for being unclear. What I intended to say was that wheelwrights that I talked to would only share information if either they were retired or if the type and size of wheel I intended to build was not infringing on their market ie wheels type and size that they build. While it is natural to assume for this area of Pennsylvania that a person is referring to the Amish when discussing Wheelwrights, I did not intend to give the impression that I was talking about the Amish wheelwrights.

Yes I did tell a funny story about an Amish wheelwright wondering about all the "cannon wheels" that he was building, but I didn't ask him any questions about building wheels. The poor man has spent years building "cannon wheels" for reenactors and others and apparently wondering what the wacky "English" were doing with his wheels. ;-)

As an additional note, in general the wheelwrights that I have talked to have not given the impression that they considered themselves blacksmiths. A wheelwright is someone who tends to specialize in constructing wheels, with the emphasis on specializing as they rarely if ever do other than construct high quality wheels. Some carriage builders construct wheels for their carriages and for carriages of others. A few blacksmiths will make a wheels as the need arises, if their operation is broad in its range, but such folks have become extremely rare.

As far as blacksmiths go, I have experienced at least two smiths over the years that admitted that they were demonstrating (at their shop and/or blacksmithing conference) only techniques and processes that they had evolved beyond and no longer used due to the fear of competition or otherwise. Blacksmiths in my experience are usually willing to share what they know either because they are confident of their abilities and their market, and/or because they are truly interested in advancing the general knowledge of blacksmithing.

Again, I apologize for any and all lack of clarity on my part.

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I've run into one like that myself, really made me not want to have anything to do with the person ever again. Most folks are cool with sharing info heck its not always about competition its about sparking creativity. If I had let this person discourage me I wouldnt be in mid file on a 3 foot Katana I have going.

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The tradition of trade secrets is far from over in spite of some of us being willing to share them.
I was surprised when a local machinest refused to tell me the radius of his self made bender die for 1" thin wall stainless tube. I built a working die without his help and the next time I saw him he was having a heck of a time figuring out how to weld annodized pipe. I explained to him exactly what to do to fix the problem. (When welding annodized aluminum, weld it as if it were normal, then make a second pass with just the torch, no filler rod.)
Ever since then he realised that cooperation is better than competition.

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Several things.
In the 1960's, I was around and hot-shoeing horses and beginning to do some blacksmithing. I was interested in the broader field of blacksmithing, but I found very little going on. It seemed to me that smithing was moribund. There was only one U.S., mail order supplier of blacksmithing and horseshoeing tools & equipment, Kennedy-Foster in Clifton, New Jersey. I think that I was in on the ground floor of a blacksmithing revival, beginning about 1970. That's when I opened my school and that's the year that Alex Bealer's book came on the market, "The Art of Blacksmithing." The ABANA got it's start in the early 1970's. ABANA came west getting out of Georgia in the bicentennial year of 1976. We met on the campus of Southern Illinois University in Carbondale. I was in attendance as a demonstrator. This was the first conference that I attended. It was the first that Francis Whitaker attended. Tom Bredlow demoed. Al Paley showed slides. Dimitri Gerakaris was in attendance. Let me tell you, we were all so danged excited, because we knew that we were at the beginning of something much bigger than our individual selves. We were open to sharing whatever we could. No secrets. We were resuscitating blacksmithing in the U.S.! We were elated! There was true comaraderie.

As the years passed, it seemed that we grew some large heads and secret keepers in our midst. "Trip hammer envy" started. How big is yours? Some of the comaraderie was becoming lost. Is this a part of the natural evolution of a nascent organization? Perhaps. In any event, I was uncomfortable with what was happening.

In 1983, I was asked to demo at our Southwest Blacksmiths' meeting (SWABA) in Rowe, New Mexico. The SWABA title of the gathering was "Trade Secrets," and that rankled. To me, trade secrets was a misnomer...should have been titled helpful hints and shortcuts, or suchlike. Anyway, I knew that I wasn't going to demo so-called trade secrets. I had found a slip of papaer in a package of Celestial Seasonings tea. It said, "Don't learn the tricks of the trade; learn the trade! I began my demo by reading that paper and then proceeded to deliver a talk on the metaphysical aspects of blacksmithing, what I called "the inner workspace." Some of the audience was miffed, but I thought it was just what the doctor ordered.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith Schools

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Well I have to share this little incident from my life with you here. I was frequenting a woodworking forum and someone asked about whether and how one might create spalted wood deliberately. There was a very famous wood expert who was also a turner on that forum and he basically said he had only heard rumors about such things. I had a tough time swallowing that story as I KNEW just HOW expert he really was and also that the process was pretty simple. I piped in with a post about my experiences and then THE EXPERT seemed to realize that the cat was out of the bag and he really opened up. With both barrels! Seems he knew around half a book about those "rumors" after all! I thought it a bit silly for him to have been so tight lipped at first but put it down to his New England roots. Six months later he was gone. I hate to think how much knowledge left this world with him... but I am glad that I prodded him to share a little more than he would have... I'm pretty sure that he was glad of it too. I am old enough to know that my time here is short now and I am very happy when a young person really wants to learn what I have to share! I've been a collector of knowledge all of my life and I hope that I can pass some of it on to younger people that they will use!

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I've never understood the obsession with competition. I've rarely been anywhere that there's been enough smiths for competition to be a serious issue. The only two guys I know who regularly found themselves competing for work were also regular collaborators. (Often on the same jobs.)

The other funny thing about keeping secrets (as arftist aptly demonstrated) is that anyone ambitious and motivated enough to be competition will compete whether you share with them or not. A lot of other folks interested in smithing will never compete no matter how much you show them.

So you might as well talk it up. You'll get a much better feeling teaching someone something than keeping a secret.

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Let all face it. Most everything we learn we have learned from someone else. Very few are gifted enough to figure it out all by themself. If we do discover something different, I can't understand on how someone can keep it to themself and not want to share it with someone else. Where would we all be if we did not teach one another? For some it all comes down to greed and you know we that will lead you. <_<

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We in America come from a very different background from the old guild systems in Europe which evolved to *limit* competition by controlling the market. They often set the prices, set the working hours, set who could set up shop, forbid anyone to work outside the limits of their particular guild----you could have your workshop pulled down if you were caught doing another guilds work in yours! (

I get a lot of "How long did it take a medieval smith to make a sword" questions only to answer that medieval smiths didn't make swords! They forged the blade which would then be sent out to be ground/polished in another shop and then to another to be hilted and a fourth one would make the scabbard. The Cutler would sell the blade and often subcontract the other steps out but no one shop or person did them all! You used folks who were experts in each step and had the proper tools and used them full time! None of this "I will use my capital intense forge today and then shut it down and use a capital intense watermill to power my grinder and then have that set idle while I use capital intense tooling to make guard, grip and pommel, etc".)

In America we were a frontier society and people had to do a lot of different things just to survive out on the frontier! So a single smith might make things from a number of different guilds---we know that he would often be the farrier, work on wagons, make edge tools, even pull teeth if necessary.

I have talked to european smiths who are amazed at how open we are with sharing our knowledge; of course many of us are hobbyists and so are not guarding our livelihoods; but even most of the Pro's are quite supportive of other smiths. (Some of this may be like armour makers who are *VERY* supportive of new aspirants to the craft realizing that after having *tried* it most new people will suddenly realize how awesomely cheap that "too expensive" professionally made armour is!)

As for "secrets" well a lot of things I have seen people claim to have invented I have seen in museums several hundred years old...I tell folks "don't worry about being the *first*; worry about being the *best*!"

(Once met a lad at the Knifemakers Guild Show who was going to build a knife-gun that shot the tip of the blade---"Oh like the one from the Renaissance shown in 'Arms and Armor Annual', vol 1 'A Wheel-lock Dagger from the Court of the Medici'" He was very downhearted to find that he wouldn't be the *first* by centuries...)

Now we do get into cases where someone will take our freely shared information and try to undercut us---why I say worry about being *BEST*, much much harder to equal the speed and quality of an experienced person! (and they are much more likely to be able to make quick changes to designs that have been pirated and churned out in China to flood the US market.

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great topic.............
I'll throw in a story that HELPED me find my way to sharing/teaching. Sharing GUARANTEES the future of the trade.

A. Pendry tells a story of the old days when he met S. Schwarzer.......and started teaching him the bladesmithing "secrets". LOL..........Al said he got a LOT of grief from the so called "good ol boys of the trade"........asking HOW could he just GIVE all that hard earned INFO to some "up and comer".......? ........
Alfred replied with .........and I paraphrase.... "as I see it...........when I meet someone with that much Fire in his belly to learn something I know...........it's simple ..........do I want to be the guy that WOULDN'T help or give him the info........OR.......would I rather be the guy that offered up the help?.......Either way.......that person is GONNA get the info. "

anyway.............that statement HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD for me.......and it's been how I justify GIVIN it ALL AWAY........to anyone that shows an interest.

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Pretty simple mechanics;"the energy you put out is the energy you get back".
I will freely share anything I know with anyone who wants to keep an open and objective mind. I have always seen my efforts returned at least in kind if not doubled. Besides,if I show someone how to do something then I know I`ll have to step up my game in order to stay ahead of them . Does that count as self motivation? :)

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Someone once said "knowledge is power" and if you control the knowledge of any given craft that folks need to survive on a daily basis you can control the people who need your work, and set the prices. There is always someone or some guild who wants nothing more than to have power over over the masses. Thank whatever being you worship that there are just as many people out there who will share any and all knowledge they have in order to help others.

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Great subject I my self am always willing to share. The chapter of FABA I belong to folks here are the same way. It takes commitment to learn and practice to get it right. Sure I will teach any one to swing a hammer but they will have to work at it. That's why I like this web site every one is willing to share.
I have told many students I can teach methods. Style you will have to find and develop your own. Some one said aren't you afraid that after you teach me I will steal your business my reply was if they like your style better good for you. I have found my own space I am the only one in town that still hand forges. The rest do cut and paste. I don't want to do what they do either when I first met them they thought I was after there business some of them have referred me to customers since,

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This last weekend while I was at my ghosttown blacksmith shop a guy came in and asked for lessons and how much I would charge. After listening to his story, no charge will be applied. This guy is building his own house on property in the middle of nowhere, a farmstead. He and his family will be living off the land with no electricity, a brave person. This young family is well known in the area, they already live with no T.V., no internet, and grow their own food. All they want to be is selfsufficient. How can I possibly charge this person, or be "stingy" with the little knowledge I have??? I will pass along as much info. as I can and help this family achieve their goals.......Besides, in the future, perhaps he will teach me a thing or two about a skill he has obtained!

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I get a lot of "How long did it take a medieval smith to make a sword" questions only to answer that medieval smiths didn't make swords! They forged the blade which would then be sent out to be ground/polished in another shop and then to another to be hilted and a fourth one would make the scabbard. The Cutler would sell the blade and often subcontract the other steps out but no one shop or person did them all! You used folks who were experts in each step and had the proper tools and used them full time! None of this "I will use my capital intense forge today and then shut it down and use a capital intense watermill to power my grinder and then have that set idle while I use capital intense tooling to make guard, grip and pommel, etc".)


I'd be interested in knowing when the "organization and division of labor" came about. Seems like it could only happen when a community reached a certain size. Just like in this country, in small communities, the town blacksmith had to have many skills; wheelwright, farrier etc. I would bet that in smaller communities there were medieval smiths who made swords from start to finish (as is usually done today). Even those who might have documented the process would have done so in proto-industrial metropolitan areas. Rural practices were almost totally ignored. And even with the emergence of large cities, 80% of the population lived outside the cities.
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Grant; you pretty much hit it. The division of labor can only come about once a community reaches a certain size.
Guilds-for lack of a better term-have been a part of life since man first became 'civilized'. Even among Cro-Magnon. Not everyone in the village could knapp flint, or make fishing nets, or weave. If you can keep the village small then everyone is usualy willing to work togeather in order to survive. Its when the village becomes a town the town a city the city a mettropolis things get sticky. One flint knapper in a village is good and he passes his knowledge onto his son and maybe even teaches a few select others how to do basic knapping strictly for survivaal purposes two or more knappers in your village and your techniques become a closly guarded secret. Maybe your faster or the other knapper can get a sharper edge to his points. The person who does the best job gets the most in trade for their points.
Works the same with any profession, has been for thousands of years and will continue to be so long after we and whatever secrets/skills we have are gone.

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Grant; you pretty much hit it. The division of labor can only come about once a community reaches a certain size.
Guilds-for lack of a better term-have been a part of life since man first became 'civilized'. Even among Cro-Magnon. Not everyone in the village could knapp flint, or make fishing nets, or weave. If you can keep the village small then everyone is usualy willing to work togeather in order to survive. Its when the village becomes a town the town a city the city a mettropolis things get sticky. One flint knapper in a village is good and he passes his knowledge onto his son and maybe even teaches a few select others how to do basic knapping strictly for survivaal purposes two or more knappers in your village and your techniques become a closly guarded secret. Maybe your faster or the other knapper can get a sharper edge to his points. The person who does the best job gets the most in trade for their points.
Works the same with any profession, has been for thousands of years and will continue to be so long after we and whatever secrets/skills we have are gone.


So, in essence what this boils down to is man's instinct to survive? Or, to prevent market saturation to enable survival in this profession? This would mean that being "stingy" about our knowledge may be out of our control due to this instinct, that is unless we consciously take steps to overcome this instinct. Perhaps some people are being "stingy" and don't even know it,while others are more aware!! Oooh, we are getting deep...
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Grant would you buy a 1.2 million dollar CNC mill and then let it stand idle most of the time cause you were working on a wooden scabbard? Water driven hammers and grindstones are very much like that in early times.

Tools were expensive. Specialization meant that the tools were being used all the time by people that were *good* at what they were doing. I believe that specialization of work has been noted as early as the late stone age and flourished with the invention of agriculture and the creation of food surpluses. "Single Authorship" is much more a modern mindset as even in a famed smith's shop the apprentices and journeymen would be doing a lot of the work on something that got the master's stamp.


Specialized people were expensive too. You don't make swords in small rural communities---you make spears and axes. Swords were done in larger communities that could support the specialization---at least as early as the 500's that I know of. Remember that *most* soldiers didn't have a sword, they had spears and axes until late medieval/renaissance times when the levies were often pikemen or bowmen. (crossbows were again prestige weapons and most crossbowmen were from middle class backgrounds that could *afford* their weapon).

Marksberg in Germany has a smithy built into the castle wall and they were very careful to point out that swords and armour would come from the pro's in Nuremberg and only fast and dirty repair of such items would be done locally---much like today if you owned a Lamborghini you would have the dealer work on it except for fast repairs in the field to get it to the dealer and if it needed more you would even have it towed to the dealer than allow some local mechanic to work on it.

I know as far as iron making; that iron was a trade commodity even in the early iron age---currency bars---and a typical smith would not smelt their own iron but buy/trade for it. There are a few examples of very isolated norse farms where they evidently ran a bloomery to get their own iron to forge into farm items---but it seems to be the exception that proves the rule in Western Europe.

We are so spoiled in that we commonly have the tools of many trades to hand. OTOH most of us are more "Jack of All Trades and Master of None"

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Philosophy is an interesting thing. So is the internet. I have things I do in my shop that are proprietary to a specific customer. I have built a business relationship with this customer over I guess 13 years of production work, R&D, receiving and shipping. The items I produce are for their needs and their prints ( so to speak ). This is simple business practice. I will bring this specific business relationship up from time to time ( I just call it production work ) when I chat or perhaps post on a forum or chat on the phone. I may perhaps be evasive in my intercourse. If I am in business with you ( or the Government, or Deere and Company or anyone else ) I feel a dedication to you as an associate. Perhaps this goes back to the Scouts or little league or the military. Having spent 40 years of my life building business relationships based on trust I have a bit of experience. I have yes failed more than once but I have successes as well. The simple thing is some will question me about specific process issues and I may remain silent. Some may consider this being stingy. So be it. Anyone that has ever visited my shop has seen the tools, tooling and or process issues involved with the things I do. I have had many ask me " what do they use that for or what do they sell that for ?" Normally my reply is I really don't care. Just write me the check and another order (thank you very much). Items from my own line of work are a different story. If you visit an event I am attending or my shop you will see these items. I am not big business. I have built things over the years for people that have wanted specific issues incorporated from other peoples work. I have happy customers for the large part. Building an item from a customers print ( on the back of a napkin, mailed to you from another state ) can be perhaps a bit frustrating but also rewarding. If I tell you that I will produce something for you in a timely fashion and this item will be for your business alone I mean what I say. If i develop something over the long haul and you have a specific need for it in your business I simply say that this is not proprietary to your business and we either come to terms or I don't do the work.

I very much enjoy history and historical artifacts. I have lusted for a colonial period anvil for many years. I now have one in my possession ( thank you very much Frank Turley, Mike and ZW). I met Frank in St Louis at a BAM demo. We had (have) a friend in common ( John Teslow ). It was indeed an honor to be asked by Frank to assist him in that demo. I learned a lot in a few hours and from reading his book. Building a friendship and business relationship with Frank has been very rewarding. Short story long, Frank had an anvil and I bought it. It took other smiths and my relationships with them to make this happen. ZW went to Santa Fe to pick up the anvil. He then passed it off to Mike ( OK Mike is not a smith but a long time rondy friend) on the highway home from Arizona to Iowa. I can now build a period shop based on American French and Indian era. This is something that will take time. I have commitments and a day job and life to deal with.

I freely share information with folks that get to know me. Complete strangers or once -twice a year acquaintances that want me to show them specifically how I forge a hawk may stand waiting. I have developed a few things that folks know me by. What an honor it is to have your work copied. In the end, I really think that the sharing of information is based sometimes on personal relationships we build with folks. I don't get out much really. I have been blessed with meeting a number of extremely talented smiths (some world renowned and some not well known but legendary none the less) in my lifetime. I have the Kerrihard hammer from one of the smiths Dad used when I was a very young man. I missed the opportunity to buy the anvil or other tools from the other smith Dad took stuff to. None the less I feel a connection to all who have shared information with me. To say some smiths are stingy is perhaps short sided.

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. ......Complete strangers or once -twice a year acquaintances that want me to show them specifically how I forge a hawk may stand waiting. ....... To say some smiths are stingy is perhaps short sided.


You cover a lot of ground with your comments. Certainly if a person has developed a product I feel they have the right to the fruit of their labors in making and selling that product. I would also agree that you are under no obligation to give away processes and product information that you have spent time developing, after all an invention is yours to keep. I would also agree that your time is money and that you are under no obligation to spend your valuable time helping strangers that offer nothing in return, especially if you feel their goal is to use your information to your detriment by going into competition with you. Yes I can see your point.

I guess my main question is illustrated by the following example. Years back I spent two whole days at an "Early Wrought Iron" conference in a neighboring state watching a *paid* demonstrator make an adjustable candle holder with four forged-square corners. I had previously heard that forging sharp square corners especially using the method the demonstrator was doing was not done because of a tendency to form inclusions that result in cracks. The demonstrator mentioned that he was demonstrating making corners using a process that he does not himself use for his products, and the candle-holder is not a product that he produces. After two days of watching him, he passes around the finished candle-holder and indeed two of the four corners had severely deep inclusions on the inside. I kept quiet so as not to negatively effect the weekends of the other paid participants. I have watched at least one other *paid* demonstrator who admitted only sharing techniques that he would not use himself. So I have to wonder what folks think about paid demonstrators that do that.
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Truth is most people dont listen, or take it seriously enough to get into a position to really take it far like the teacher

if your going to be a blacksmith your probley going to face alot harder times than most, if you cant endure it and keep going eventually your going to stop.


blacksmiths share secrets because they love the craft, fabricators dont really do the same they might but its more of a job than blacksmithing.

if the teacher is afraid that you might out do them, find a better teacher

hand forging is like embroidery by hand the most skilled people in the world have a tough time making money in our society and everyone else is wanting to learn

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