WmHorus Posted May 25, 2011 Share Posted May 25, 2011 He is here Illegally he deserves to be deported back to wherever, come here legally and most folks wont have an issue. Warned ya back when you mentioned this in chat it was gunna bite ya in the butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 26, 2011 Author Share Posted May 26, 2011 It is over. I will lissen to all the advise i got from here, and, I will pay VERY close attention to what da "HOOD" say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmHorus Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 LOL, I enjoy being called a HOOD member, must be the first Jewish member in existence. If you dont like the Immigration Laws as they are you can always lobby for changes, but as they stand now coming to the US illegally and taking jobs from people who need them here do not win them any friends. And if I remember correctly you wanted to see what they were hiring as a blacksmith, and after you hear a sob story from the guy you suddenly became their champion. You wanted to see what took the job from you and see what kinda shoddy job they would do that might get your work back. They undercut your prices and worked for a longer time straight than you and your assistant would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 26, 2011 Share Posted May 26, 2011 No matter what many liberals want to think there are ways to come here and get a work visa and/or citizenship. The United States do not have closed borders. Why don't they have them? those that are denied entry, normally have good reason for it, like crimes in their home land. Remember 9/11 ??? it changed the way a lot of immigration checks are done. By jumping the border they are criminal, (definition is not following the law) and them being in your shop, would have been seen by arresting authorities coming in as them working for you, prove otherwise you would have been caught red handed so to speak. As for them returning to pay you more, why would they? you thought they were honest after what you knew already? they got what they wanted and you took all the risk. In a normal business situation, a sub contractor provides Proof of insurance and needed licenses. I get them for any sub I hire, and any one that hires me as a sub I have to provide them. I do have the right and responcibility to check anyone that works for me, or works on my property, and I am offended that others would set you up by telling you otherwise. Don't ask the faceless people on the internet, check with your local authorities. A fast call is free, and will most of the time keep you safe. When the law is involved, it is not better to ask forgiveness than get permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearhartironwerks Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 We here on the left coast, are probably a little more forgiving as the population of Mexican and Hispanic people are more prominent per capita than in the mid west, and perhaps other areas of the country, and figure in greatly in the farm industry. If it weren't for foreign workers in the fields, most of whom are not here legally, there would be no agriculture industry in WA, CA, or OR. This is not small potatoes...no pun intended...we're talking billions of $. I don't profess to know what the answer is as to the legalities as they are written vs reality. What I do believe is that some sort of unified program must be instated that incorporates those already here who have become productive members of our society, and making citizenship available, and at the same time, screening and safe guarding our borders. Unfortunately, this is a contentious issue that probably isn't going to get solved anytime soon, if ever. In the interim, until the politicians get off their collective XXXXX and see the light, a lot of people are going to suffer on both sides of the debate...the farmers and the workers. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 I thank y'all for your concern. Nothing was stolen from my shop, and the fifty is forgiven since i now have a full big propane tank, i got a lesson in human endurance is about all I took away, Miguel had no smithing techniques new to me,and was a newbie hissself. There are coal burning blacksmiths in old Mexico, and i would like to meet one someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 I thank y'all for your concern. Nothing was stolen from my shop, and the fifty is forgiven since i now have a full big propane tank, i got a lesson in human endurance is about all I took away, Miguel had no smithing techniques new to me,and was a newbie hissself. There are coal burning blacksmiths in old Mexico, and i would like to meet one someday. How much propane can be left in that 80# tank after 3 men at about 40 hours straight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted May 27, 2011 Share Posted May 27, 2011 We here on the left coast, are probably a little more forgiving as the population of Mexican and Hispanic people are more prominent per capita than in the mid west, and perhaps other areas of the country... John Thank you John for pointing this out. If I remember my history correctly California was "discovered" in 1542 by Juan Cabrillo who was working for Spain and until 1848 when statehood happened was under various spanish and mexican control. Seems to me that here in Cali anyway that the spaniards and mexicans had this for twice as long as it has been a state. That is why we on the left coast may be more relaxed. Here is some history on our name: California was the name given to a mythical island populated only by beautiful Amazon warriors, as depicted in Greek myths, using gold tools and weapons in the popular early 16th-century romance novel Las Sergas de Esplandián (The Adventures of Esplandián) by Spanish author Garci Rodríguez de Montalvo. This popular Spanish fantasy was printed in several editions with the earliest surviving edition published about 1510. In exploring Baja California the earliest explorers thought the Baja Peninsula was an island and applied the name California to it.[7] Mapmakers started using the name "California" to label the unexplored territory on the North America west coast. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 27, 2011 Author Share Posted May 27, 2011 Miguel was forging on a small tank the owner had filled, while the big tank was being filled, he never switched because the little tank still has gas in it, I wonder just how long a little tank can last with a three burner whisper daddy cooking continously at 8 lbs psi? Since the ambient temperature in my shop is approaching 100 deg f. now I have no plans to do a big gas event anytime soon. When I do in January i will let you know Steve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Gearhartironworks, agriculture will stay around even without illegals. Who was picking before WWII when the migrants were brought in to help with the war effort? Even into the 60's the locals back home worked in the fruit yards up through high school. I grew up in Solano County which is between SF, and Sac.CA. We mostly had orchards of cherries, pears, peaches, and some row crops. It has moved more towards vineyards the last couple of decades. Pears are being allowed to drop because it costs more to pick them than they can sell them for due to overseas imports from China, and Turkey for apricots. How XXXXXX can they grow apricots, harvest them, pack them , ship them halfway around the world, and still sell them for 1/3 the cost of domestically grown ones? When manual labor gets too expensive,or unavailable, machinery will be designed to do the work, as has been done with some industries - including agriculture. The problem is that there is a steady supply of inexpensive manual labor available to the farmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 28, 2011 Author Share Posted May 28, 2011 Who has ever heard of "WINOS" ? Way back when a person wanted to work enough to eat.Then drink till oblivion. They had the ambition to actually do it. There was no government giving free housing "section 8" and food stamps. At least this administration is doing a good job of getting them off the streets. The pear farmers should run hogs in the orchard to eat the free fall fruit. They will never get people to pick them up, because they got foodstamps and pears are covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Miller Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 NY must be a lot different than Indiana, here it is a crime. A landlord is held accountable for everything that happens on his property. One block away, a neighbor was arrested, and the rental he was living in was seized by the FBI, and the Landlord was also charged for maintaining a nuisance, and accessory, by the feds. This property was a rental and the owner was also charged... I repeated so no one thinks its a typo, this property sold for only $25K at the Govt auction, partly because the in-side was trashed badly from the raid. But the USA is still a semi-free country, believe as you wish, but it wont make it go away. OnR was the scapegoat in case they did get caught, a lighting company had them work away from their property to protect themselves. Criminals get arrested and lie all the time, why wont rusty get pulled into it? he took the hush money, and posted he knew they were illegal, and they were in his shop working. I am trying to keep OnR (and others) out of jail, not place him there. Down state NY is a lot different, we have a culture of immigrants. Many people that you would assume are illegal immigrants are here legally though we have out fair share. I live in a town that is rumored to be 30% illegal immigrants. I have mixed feelings about it. They do take work away from people who are obeying rules but I cant say I wouldn't do the same if I were in there shoes. They mostly seem like hard working family people and stay out of trouble. Before that the neighborhood that they took over was overrun with crack heads, drunks and prostitutes. Most people are fairly well off around here and rely on immigrant labor to maintain their life style. They tend to do jobs like landscaping, child care, home cleaning etc... Most people honestly don't seem to mind as long as they don't have to live near them. It is illegal to even ask the immigration status of someone when you higher them. You have to send in paper work to the government and they confirm if the person is legal to work. if there is illegal activity going on in a rental unit like selling drugs or prostitution and they can prove they know about it the government can seize the property and demolish the structure. As far as renting to illegal immigrants I know of no law state or federal that makes it against the law. I tend to obay the law and try to comply with it whenever possible. There is nothing illegal about what rusty did. Is it a bad idea probably, would I have done it no, could he get sued if something went wrong yes though the guy would probably blame himself if he got hurt. My personal opinion is their is probally too much immigration but people do have rights weather or not they are a legal resident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 On 5/30/2011 at 2:36 PM, southshoresmith said: Down state NY is a lot different, we have a culture of immigrants. These guys didn't immigrate they are in violation of federal laws. On 5/30/2011 at 2:36 PM, southshoresmith said: I have mixed feelings about it. They do take work away from people who are obeying rules but I cant say I wouldn't do the same if I were in there shoes. They mostly seem like hard working family people and stay out of trouble. so you think violating federal laws is staying out of trouble? On 5/30/2011 at 2:36 PM, southshoresmith said: It is illegal to even ask the immigration status of someone when you higher them. You have to send in paper work to the government and they confirm if the person is legal to work. what paper work ? you mean the lawfully required paperwork like SS cards, and Identification that we all have to provide when we take a job? NY does not allow you to ask for them? That is weird. When did NY leave the USA? The rest of us have to provide those things so employers can cover status and make sure we pay our fair share of taxes. Not too many illegals worry about taxes. On 5/30/2011 at 2:36 PM, southshoresmith said: I tend to obay the law and try to comply with it whenever possible. There is nothing illegal about what rusty did. Is it a bad idea probably, would I have done it no, could he get sued if something went wrong yes though the guy would probably blame himself if he got hurt. My personal opinion is their is probally too much immigration but people do have rights weather or not they are a legal resident. No one has a "right" to not follow the law, its the law's that allow us to have rights, that is why they have prisons for those that wont follow the laws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shimanek Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Epic fail in civics..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_bluegrass Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 SNIP No one has a "right" to not follow the law, its the law's that allow us to have rights,that why they have prisons for those that wont follow the laws. The law does not grant rights. The law limits right. With no laws I have the right to shove toothpicks up your nose. (Assuming I'm capable of that.) The law says your right not to have toothpicks shoved up your nose is greater than my right to do as I see fit and so makes it unlawful for me to shove toothpicks up your nose (unless that is what you want). Thus limiting my rights. That being said, I've never seen a job application that didn't ask if I could legally work in the U.S. ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Depends on what industry you get into. If it involves national security items like defense components, etc you will be asked that. We have parts that we make that the blueprints are noted that only US citizens are supposed to see them. Like the others, I am not anti immigration, just anti ILLEGAl immigration. Just because they are doing a job doesn't make it right. Even legal immigrants are against illegals. The only way I see to really address this problem is to go after the employers, and make it so risky for them that they quit hiring them. Our rights come from the US Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. I see a lot of current laws as being unconstitutional, and believe that we have given up too many of our rights as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Are you guys EVER going the let this horse die? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thingmaker3 Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 It is illegal to even ask the immigration status of someone when you higher them. You have to send in paper work to the government and they confirm if the person is legal to work. what paper work ? you mean the lawfully required paperwork like SS cards, and Identification they we all have to provide when we take a job? NY does not allow you to ask for them? Actually, it is the Feds who make these rules, not the states. Law requires an I-9 form. But the employer doesn't get to pick what documents are presented. Prospective employee picks any one from "list A" or any one from both "list B" and "list C." And the employer doesn't get to make any decision about status. So blame the Feds!! $50.00 is $50.00. If they are not in the way or slowing you down. Why not?What if Ice-pick offers you $50 to use a corner of your shop for boiling up some crack cokane? He'll stay out of your way and won't slow you down. He's just trying to make a better life for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 For all you who are obviously interested in immigration, here is a link for y'all. http://www.immigrationforum.org/ Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Are you guys EVER going the let this horse die? Not anytime soon I'm sure . . . These "arm chair expert" threads are always good for a laugh but I'm surprised Glenn has let this one get this far . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Not anytime soon I'm sure . . . These "arm chair expert" threads are always good for a laugh but I'm surprised Glenn has let this one get this far . Yea, I agree. I've had threads closed/deleted because of Christian comments in them (we don't want to offend) that were not this long. I have enjoyed reading some of the comments here, some make you smile, others make you laugh, and some ya think "What the HECK is he thinking?!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted June 2, 2011 Author Share Posted June 2, 2011 I learned a lesson from this experience.No one got hurt,I did not lose any tools, and am happy to have a full tank of propane. Will I do it again ? No. I fear the IFI backlash more than the cops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 lol we still love you Brother Dan, I stuck my foot in this because we all need to be aware of legal business practices, and what can happen to us if we do not follow set rules. This is not just for USA, even tho that is what I worry about as a US citizen. Other countries have very severe laws about illegal workers. Look at Mexico, their laws are surprisingly strict compared to what most Americans think we have here. Glenn did talk to me about being careful about getting into political issues. This is the business section, I have tried to deal with facts and laws, not feeling's or belief's. Laws are not subject to a feeling, they either exist or not, where as religion can even have members of the same group not always agree what it is. What I feared was mentioning the I-9 (I used to have my own electrical company, I employed 10 people) and pick any one from "list A" or any one from both "list B" and "list C "getting a you people going with reply's of Chinese take out food. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Steve, you're very vigorously asserting some things in this thread that sound a little fishy to me -- specifically, I mean your assertion that a commercial landlord is somehow criminally liable for his renter's actions in hiring illegal immigrant workers. I'd be very interested in seeing you cite to some official source of information to back you up. Statutes, regulations, even just government agency websites -- something that supports your understanding of the law. I write and help negotiate forty-plus page, multi-year, multi-million dollar commercial leases on a reasonably regular basis, and I can tell you the issue you're raising isn't even on our radar. I've seen commercial leases prepared by some of the biggest law firms in the country, and none of them touched upon the alleged problem you're raising. So again, if you could just cite to some reliable source that backs up your position, I'd extremely interested to see it. After 9/11, commercial landlords did add clauses to their leases to address Executive Order 13224, which has to do with doing business with known or suspected terrorists. But that has almost nothing to do with illegal immigration generally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 Steve, you're very vigorously asserting some things in this thread that sound a little fishy to me -- specifically, I mean your assertion that a commercial landlord is somehow criminally liable for his renter's actions in hiring illegal immigrant workers. I admit that I dont always come across well. I was not aware I was telling anyone that they are responsible for checking status of renters. and I don't see how it came out that way, sorry. I was telling Old N Rusty, he was at risk, because he said that he was in his shop with the illegals working, not that lighting company. Citation: 2 or 3 years ago, a drywall company got nailed for having illegals working, that contractor was also fined and removed from the job at Indiana University, Ft Wayne campus. After 9/11, commercial landlords did add clauses to their leases to address Executive Order 13224, which has to do with doing business with known or suspected terrorists. But that has almost nothing to do with illegal immigration generally. I have no idea about rental issues and contracts. My fear is based on Indiana enforcing what they refer to as "absentee landlord accountability" where owners of a property are being held liable for what does happen on their property. Add the new court rulings here, where no warrants are needed to come and check any property! and I saw the Immagration coming and assuming OnR was the employer. Citation about the warrant issue.. A man fought this ruling after he denied the police entry with out a warrant, they entered anyway, he "removed them" and he was arrested and sentenced for that denial. This past month he lost the appeal, so he is burned for not letting the police into his residence. Indiana court has ruled that "the police having a desire is probable cause, so no warrants are needed". I am no lawyer, just fear what I see happening with the rulings in the courts "new powers' lately. Maybe its just terrorist activity they want to search for, but that is not what has been occurring. What a thread this turned into, I do make mistakes, but I never intended to get into renter issues, it started because a member was there with the illegals working in his shop, I thought that placed him at risk of being seen as the employer, I tried to cite what I have seen happen around here, and how he is responsible for what happens in his shop, and it spiraled from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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