Ferrous Beuler Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 We just had a storm pass through here with quite a light show. That got me to wondering what effect lightning might have, if any, on an anvil. Besides the one inside I keep one out in the back yard too. It sits on a wooden base made from a pressure treated 6"x6" cut and glued up to form a 12"x12", that sits on a 2" thick concrete paver. So i was thinking, since it is a fairly sizable hunk of iron just sitting out in the open that it might attract a bolt. Would the wooden pedestal effectively insulate it? If an anvil did take a strike would it suffer any ill effects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 that all depends, to many unmentioned factors that can effect the outcome. Do you understand the concept of induction heating ? on the other hand it could have passed through with no effect, or it could turn it into a magnet. is this something you plan to try? if so let us know how it turns out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MLMartin Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Being insulated from the ground I suspect that it would melt. The reason houses have lightning rods is so the electricity can travel from the house and into the ground and dissipate. Having your anvil insulated with wood timbers and concrete most of the electricity would stay in the anvil and make it heat way up. Theoretically you could attach a metal rod to the anvil and have it run into the ground 4 or 5 feet to help dissipate the electricity from a lightning strike. ...........BUT if you have any trees or building with in 10 or 20 feet of the anvil I highly suspect that lightning would strike one of those first being that they are much taller. I guess you could mount your anvil on the top of a 20 foot wood poll in the middle of a field, that would probably get hit sooner or later and we could find out for sure what would happen, call it science. What ever it was it sure would be a sight to see. but all in all I dont think you have lots to worry about with your anvil outside, maybe a little rust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 An anvil on a wooden stump is unlikely to attract an anvil strike, because it is insulated from the ground. If you really want a lightning strike you'd need to put it on a metal stand in the middle of an open area. Lightning rods are connected to the ground in order to allow electricity to pass to the ground without damage to the structure. They are mounted above the highest points on a building and they have sharp tips to encourage the concentration of the static charge. Aside from a sharp tip on the horn, your anvil is quite unlike a lightning rod. Heat is generated when electricity encounters resistance: iron is a much better conductor than the wood stump, so in the unlikely event of a lightning strike to your anvil I would expect the stump to be damaged rather than the anvil. Iron and steel are relatively poor conductors compared to aluminum or copper but I think the anvil would be alright. In addition a larger diameter wire has less resistance than a smaller wire and an anvil would be a very large, but very short wire. Induction heating is the result of high frequency variation in a magnetic field, a lightning strike is large pulse of electricity actually passing through the anvil, so it's not quite the same thing. Resistance heating is likely to be a larger factor. My guess is that the anvil would be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Being insulated from the ground I suspect that it would melt. How would the current have any effect if it was isolated? if there is no path to ground then there is no circuit. fciron was correct in his statement of "An anvil on a wooden stump is unlikely to attract an anvil strike, because it is insulated from the ground" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Aluminum aircraft in flight take lightening strikes near daily with little ill effects to the aircraft, the electronics, or the occupants. The wet stump is a fair conductor in a storm, and is part of why trees get struck regularly. I doubt the anvil would be affected, but the stump may or may not suffer. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Phil, Trees certainly take damage from lightning strikes, so wet wood can't be that great a conductor. I believe much of the damage actually comes from water being explosively vaporized inside the tree, which is pretty cool if it's true. Less water inside an anvil stump, so the current might travel over the wet surface, well beyond my pay grade at this point. Who's got a big field and some anvils to run an experiment? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Thing is lightning doesn't need good conduction because the voltage is so high. Like a spark plug, it can jump to ground. The voltage in a lightining strike is orders of magnitude higher than that of a spark plug coil. As to the effects on the anvil, I couldn't guess and would asume each situation to be unique in any event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glen56 Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 back in the late sixties,went out to an old station down in the riverina part of new south wales,there was a drag chain they used 50 years before that was strung between 2 pine trees,this chain had 5 inch links and was 150 feet in length,lightning had struck the chain and welded into a solid mass ,trees had gone long ago ,power indeed in nature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old N Rusty Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Great story, Cobber. what they drag chains for Down Under? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Clearing land of brush & trees? Connect between two large cats and drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 Ha Ha! You guys make it sound like I am trying to get my anvil struck! I was just wondering what might happen if it did. I suppose the worst outcome would be the face becoming separated. Now that glen56 mentioned that large chain being welded together I can picture somebody here trying to harness that force and use it in the shop... (not a good idea!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fciron Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I can totally see chain welding up if struck by lightning, the contact area between the links is relatively small, so there would be more resistance and heat there. Just like when something arcs on the layout table if there's poor contact. Dang, a thunderstorm just ended here. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macbruce Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Ha Ha! You guys make it sound like I am trying to get my anvil struck! I was just wondering what might happen if it did. The odds of it being struck are astronomical............But those odds can come up..........Best case scenario might be a religious icon gets burned into the face, I'd love to see THAT on Ebay ..........:lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Lightning's pushing enough voltage to ionize a few miles of atmosphere. To put that in perspective, it takes ~ 40,000 volts to arc across a 1/8 inch air gap. Put another way you aren't insulating against that if it decides your anvil is the path of least resistance. If it did get hit I expect your stump would suffer for it but I imagine the anvil would come through just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Actually 120 volts can arc up to 10 feet given the right conditions. (one of many unusual questions covered for the Electrical Journeymen Exam) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewed Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 I would think that the metal anvil would be just fine. The stump, an the other hand, will probably be all blown to *****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
don't tread on me Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 The wood Will Not Insolate the anvil the bolt should traval right through to the ground. It might leave a small bern mark where it enters and exits. The Drewed is right about the stump it would probly bet blown to bits. I am an Electrical Apprentice and my Dad is a Electrical Contractor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Our house was struck by lightening. It followed a stubbed off old plumbing stack down from the roof to the basement and then jumped over to a copper cold water line. The arc blew a hole in the copper line---probably the localized arc + steam pressure behind it. My guess: it would leave an arc scar in the anvil, Might heat it enough to draw temper on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeman Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 Actually 120 volts can arc up to 10 feet given the right conditions. (one of many unusual questions covered for the Electrical Journeymen Exam) For values of "right conditions" that involve the conductor carrying several orders of magnitude more than 120 volts.http://en.wikipedia....ki/High_voltage Relevant passage: "The dielectric breakdown strength of dry air, at Standard Temperature and Pressure (STP), between spherical electrodes is approximately 33 kV/cm" So to ionize a path (required first step for an arc to occur) you're looking at a minimum of just over 300,000V to initiate the arc. Also worth pointing out my initial figure was incorrect, it's more like 10kv to arc across an 1/8 inch gap.Wikipedia is not a reliable source for any disertation. NEC states 120 volts 10 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddDuck Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 The real question would be, what have you been doing naughty enough to have God smite your anvil? Methinks I'd take the hint, and go fishing instead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FieryFurnace Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 The odds of it being struck are astronomical............But those odds can come up..........Best case scenario might be a religious icon gets burned into the face, I'd love to see THAT on Ebay .......... Lets see the add would read... "RARE anvil with markings possibly made by the Greek gods, perhaps 4000 years old"Someone would probably try to pull that! LOL I've got no clue about electricity except that it hurts when it gets touched and it's a pain to deal with when you are trying to get trailer light to work. I second the motion that one of these guys with too many anvils should conduct a "scientific experiment for the betterment of smithkind!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 18, 2011 Share Posted May 18, 2011 Well the Langmuir Lightening lab is in my neck of the woods; but I'd be hesitant to use one of *my* anvils! (though I'm tempted by my faceless 1828 William Foster...) http://www.ee.nmt.edu/~langmuir/introduction.html It's an interesting trip up there a switchbacked one lane gravel road with every tree alongside the road showing signs of impact and every good sized tree showing signs of lightening strikes. You go from the hot dry valley up to a cool alpine meadow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundgedog Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 If you really want lightning to strike your anvil, do like Ben Franklin. Tie it to a string, tie that to a kite and during a lightning storm............. The wind may need to be blowing pretty hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 WARNING the unbelievable part of Ben's experiment is that he didn't end up killing himself! Don't try it yourself! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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