monstermetal Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Well I have started with my "trial run" of bits.. Did over 400 yesterday and today got another 400-500 that are due by Friday... So far im averaging 25/hr if you look at the big picture.. And like Grant said its not the time forging thats an issue.. The forge cycle is 20-40 seconds... is moving the things around, loading and unloading the tubs, doing the paper work so I can get paid.. that is the stuff that takes way to long... Anyway I snaped a few pics of how I got my set up at the moment, I am going to change things up a bit... And a few pics of this weeks run of bits... I should also say that one of the guys came by today and I ask them how they looked, he said that they where way better than they needed to be... I dressed every one of the first two hundred.. he said they have always just sent them out "as nipped" out of the shear... so that should help speed things up some Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireCat Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Looks like ya got your work cut out for ya....Do you make new bits ?..are they old ones that just need sharpening..? do you have to temper them..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 Im just sharpening bits, and yes I heat treat every one (although its a very simple heat treat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec.S Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 well... so much for me thinking about posting my latest sharpening ( by hand if i may add !)... because i now have competition on iforgeiron!!! but any way, with a hand hammer i do this in three hours ( sorry for stealing your thread ) ... on the points, i cut off the very end and then do a one or two heat taper ( these come back in a very bad condition from the tool hire) and on the chisels, i also cut off the end, dress the cut by hot rasping, taper more, finish by hot rasping edge (3-4 heats) i only re-forge these every so often and, the *local* tool hire have never given me 400 to do!! They also give me sds bits to re-forge. i would like to see your press pinching and forging setup if you are willing to take some more photos...i certanly looks like you have your job cut out! are you using a gas forge and doing it like a production run ( as i would assume ) or are you doing it in a slightly different way? alec sorry, i am blind as a bat... i can now see it all... induction heating, power hammer setup for pinching... or so i assume from the pics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Larry, You seem to have this one mastered! Your setup looks like you just need some worker Elves The big question...Will this bring in jam or is it bread and butter stuff? Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Nice setup, Larry. Looks like you got it figured out. It's always nice to have a system that allows you to bring in some more work and $$ for the shop. Thanks for sharing. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWHII Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Looks good, well organized. Are you having a problem keeping your quench oil cool? right now the most I have done has been about a couple a dozen in one run. I like your set up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 So far the oil seems ok... I have about 50 gallons and after running hard for 6 hours yesterday it only got up to 140 deg... One thing is the heat is much shorter with the induction set up... so a very short heat going into the tank.... also an added benefit... virtually no scale No Jam here Ian... this is not gravy work... I cant even make shop rate doing them at this rate... I am hoping as things improve I'll get up closer to shop rate but this is never going to be a fat hog to cut... The good is its steady... Average about 800 tools a week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 well... so much for me thinking about posting my latest sharpening ( by hand if i may add !)... because i now have competition on iforgeiron!!! but any way, with a hand hammer i do this in three hours ( sorry for stealing your thread ) ... on the points, i cut off the very end and then do a one or two heat taper ( these come back in a very bad condition from the tool hire) and on the chisels, i also cut off the end, dress the cut by hot rasping, taper more, finish by hot rasping edge (3-4 heats) i only re-forge these every so often and, the *local* tool hire have never given me 400 to do!! They also give me sds bits to re-forge. i would like to see your press pinching and forging setup if you are willing to take some more photos...i certanly looks like you have your job cut out! are you using a gas forge and doing it like a production run ( as i would assume ) or are you doing it in a slightly different way? alec sorry, i am blind as a bat... i can now see it all... induction heating, power hammer setup for pinching... or so i assume from the pics Well Yours look great! I cut the ends off the points before I forge, I cut the ends off the chisels after... The way I am forging the chisels is I lay about a half inch of the tool over the back of the die and form a new chisel behind it... then cut the first inch off what squirted out the back of my taper die.. that way I can do it all at a hot red heat,... If I clip the point first the nipper sucks enough heat out of the bar that I have to have a much hotter heat to do the work... Yeah this batch is heavy but I was a little overwhelmed with the pile when I started a few days ago... Im working thru it quick enough. Grant Sarver is really the guy who figured this out, he spent the day with me on Saturday and built a coil for the induction machine. Grant also designed the nipper system with the 45 deg cut off... thats a big part of what makes this system work... Another thing is having the power to make a chisel... Using a 250lb hammer I can pre shape just a bit and then spread out a perfect chisel out of a 1 1/4 bar in about three good licks Maybe once I get a little farther ahead I'll have my boy shoot some video... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryce Masuk Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 doesnt seem like alot of fun to me but you gotta do what you gotta do your boy will be real good on that hammer pretty quick doing this all day once you turn it over to him. seems like alot of work what is the heat treating process on these things do you anneal them before you forge them then anneal after forging, then quench and then temper? or can you cut and forge them in the first heat? all in all its alot of work for the money, but good practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickBalz Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 do you use a jig on your avil for the taper like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 What are you drawing them to? Red Faced as this has been discussed numerous times before but I didn't store it as I had no need---so two Sunday's ago a family friend stopped by with a broken jackhammer bit and asked me to repoint it so he could get a job done before the end of the weekend. I "winged it" and told him that I would be happy to re-do the heat treat it it was too soft or too hard---haven't heard back from him so I might have nailed it...No money involved as they have helped me out in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironstein Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 Looks great Larry. Whats that machine next to the grinder, not the induction forge, the rusty odd looking item? Correct me if i am wrong here Larry, but i assume you are taking a short heat, forging to finish shape, quenching in oil, hitting them with the grinder to watch the colors run, quenching when you see the desired color, and tossing them on the rack? When i asked the question over at NWBA forum, Grant was adamant about doing it all in one heat for a better all around tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainely,Bob Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 If your son is like my oldest he`ll be looking at all those bits and thinking "So,this is my life for the next 10 years". I know that look and usually just tell him "If you don`t want to think of it by the hour I can always pay you by the piece". Just a little incentive to get that shiny new truck of his paid off quicker. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 Andrew is not so worried about the work, I think he is ready to show me how good he will be at this ( I just hope he doesn't hurt himself or the machines) I hope I can keep him jumping though.. I fear he will be a lot slower at kicking these out than I am... Oh... and his "shiny new truck" is a 96 ranger I bought for $500 as a total and paid the Russian auto rebuild guys next door $200 to pull straight and throw a rattle can too... No payments on that sucker! As for some of the other questions... I am not drawing them at all... they are delivered as quenched. I can tell you much more about how good of job I am doing with heat treat after a few weeks of these in the field. The way I understand it is its all about how hot the tool is when it goes in the oil and how long it sits in the oil.... You want to put it in at a dull red and then get it out while its still hot enough to burn most of the oil residue off... That effectively makes a tempered tool... I finished up this weeks run today... So now I can start thinking about my other work and how to speed this proses up for next week! Nick, here is a pic of my temporary saddle die I made until I can get a "real" one done.. And a shot of some finished tools Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Wow Larry, Those look good as new! At 800/week = lots of work.(no envy on that score) The reason I asked about 'jam' is that I used to sharpen/redo SDS bits locally and found it to be a mission. ai then found a scource of SDS and SDS+ bits in the UAE I buy brand new, good Quality bits for between $1.20 and $1.80 for SDS and $2.0 to $3.2 for long SDS+ all packaged for retail, I just can't match that so I now sell new rather than sharpen. I just love your set-up there, I would love to see it in the flesh(er.metal) as it were. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Looks great Larry. Whats that machine next to the grinder, not the induction forge, the rusty odd looking item? Correct me if i am wrong here Larry, but i assume you are taking a short heat, forging to finish shape, quenching in oil, hitting them with the grinder to watch the colors run, quenching when you see the desired color, and tossing them on the rack? When i asked the question over at NWBA forum, Grant was adamant about doing it all in one heat for a better all around tool. I think the tool you are asking about is a drill bit sharpener I stole this picture from another post, I would like to see how this thing works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 Yep its a IR40 upsetter (knowing as a sharpening machine) I am mis using it really... its designed to make the collars and upset mass for drill and hammer steel.. the whole head of it is basicly a air powered press that is the vise to hold the steel. I am using the "vise" part of it as a air powered shear to nip the ends. I am probably going to set up a punch press to do this operation though because running the IR all day is more than my air compressor can handle ( I have 10HP now, I think Id need about 20HP+ to not kill the compressor) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianinsa Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Whats that machine next to the grinder, not the induction forge, the rusty odd looking item? I was also wondering what it was and now I'm better informed. Great(truthfull and accurate) albeit insensitive description! Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcostello Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 I don't know how this would fit in the scheme of things, but a place I worked for sharpened their bits by recutting the angle with a cutting torch and dumping into oil. Cut off was small, just enough to get a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 That's a lot of air- wow, ya seems like a press will be more efficient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNewman Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Looking good Larry, I guess you just have to identify where the bottlenecks are and try to speed them up. Still think your not charging enough but getting more efficient when you have that kind of volume can help. Your son may be slower to start but if he is doing these steady it won't be long before he is faster than you. Might be a good idea to have him only do half of them for a couple of weeks till he gets used to running the hammer. Going right to running the hammer 6-8hr a day could cause some sort of repetitive strain injury especially when he is just learning how to keep the stock flat on the dies and how to hold the stock as lightly as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 Looking good Larry, I guess you just have to identify where the bottlenecks are and try to speed them up. Still think your not charging enough but getting more efficient when you have that kind of volume can help. Your son may be slower to start but if he is doing these steady it won't be long before he is faster than you. Might be a good idea to have him only do half of them for a couple of weeks till he gets used to running the hammer. Going right to running the hammer 6-8hr a day could cause some sort of repetitive strain injury especially when he is just learning how to keep the stock flat on the dies and how to hold the stock as lightly as possible. Thats exactly what I was thinking John.. My plan is to slowly give him a larger and larger chunk of the weeks work. This week there where 5 pallets, I did 4 he did 1.... Next week I'll do three and 2 for him and see how that goes.... in a month or two he will have the whole ball of wax and I'll feel good about the set up. Part of my issue with having him do more at the moment is I am still fine tuning the proses and dialing in the machines... He is a good worker bee but not experienced enough to just hand the whole deal and tell him to figure it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 He is a good worker bee but not experienced enough to just hand the whole deal and tell him to figure it out Sounds like you think highly of him and he will be experienced soon enough. Just a thought: if the tool gets cooled too far before pulling, it will be brittle and too hard because there is not enough residual heat to draw the temper...are you set to put these aside and temper them as a corrective process? This heat treat process I have read about in several texts. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monstermetal Posted May 12, 2011 Author Share Posted May 12, 2011 I have not and I am not really sure where to draw the line. They are not orange hot going in the oil either so they don't get full hard anyway. I'm learning. I'll report on future failures and fixes but at this point I am pretty green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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