eric sprado Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I've never made nails before. I made a header like all the videos show. Made the taper the right way. My nails stick. The ones that don't look like they came out of the wrong end of something. None of the sites talk about how THICK the actual working part of the header should be. I think mine,after making the indentation using a ball peen as fuller,is around 1/8" thick. What am I doing wrong that they stick so bad? Tried to add pictures. No Go. I'll post over on NWBA site. Easier. Wish it weren't... I REALLY love the sharing spirit on this site.. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Glen. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!! Why is this the very hardest site on the internet to add pictures to??? I "browsed",brought to site,clicked on "add to post" and nothing... I know you'll move this somewhere,but please make this easier. thanks so much, Eric S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenylittlemetalguy Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I've never made nails before. I made a header like all the videos show. Made the taper the right way. My nails stick. Eric, my header sticks sometimes as well. And I mean stick like I gotta cut the dang nails out of there. I got around it with a drip of melted beeswax in the header hole. I need to put a very tiny amount every 20-30 nails or so. I imagine if you are a coal burner that some coal dust would help instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Eric; I like my headers to be about 1/4" thick where the nail pierces it. I taper them so that the smaller end is at the top but then make a smaller taper the other way too... so they are in fact slightly waisted like a hammer handle hole, except only a very short taper at the top. Then I slightly file the top edges of the hole to get a wee bit of smooth round over there. These things seem to help. I haven't used any beeswax but it sounds like an idea that I ought to try. Having them just the right size also seems to be important and if they end up being just a tiny bit too large I will take a heat and tap the sides of the dome in just a bit to close it up a little... this usually seems to need a slight re-drifting to finish. I am far from expert at nail making yet... but I like it and I LOVE the nails. I hope some of these suggestions will be useful to you as they have been for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arftist Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 Of course a picture would help, but I think your header is way too thin. Even Bigfoot's at a 1/4" is too thin IMHO. All my headers are a 1/2" thick. I made them all myself. Make a new one 1/2" thick and try again. 1/8" doesn't give any mass at all. We just had a thread last fall I think, on nail headers. Try searching for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Dean Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I'm at work now so can't speak to how thick my headers so will pass on this. But something that has not been mentioned is HEAT. If your nail is not HOT when you put it in the header it will tend to stick more. If done properly, you can finish heading a nail, turn the header upside down to where the nail head is on the anvil and the anvil will drawn the heat from the nail and then the nail will fall out of the header. Once your header get hot from making nails you will need to cool the header. At least this works for me. I don't use bees wax or any other lube but if it works.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I also have noticed that *use* makes a header more "slippery" as any scale on the inside of the hole get's polished off. But with my students I still get one of two who work the nail till cold and stuck and have to clamp the nail shaft in the postvise and tap the header down to free it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maillemaker Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I was scrounging around the farm and came across an old rusty horseshoe. After straightening and punching, it made a great nail header. Most of my nails stick a bit, but since the shoe had a "blob" (for lack of a better term) of iron on the end, all I have to do is flip the header upside-down and give the point of the nail a sharp tap with a ball peen. Pops right out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I found a very good article at the Pieh Tool company site about nail headers by Dave Smucker. In it he says "If you make a nail header like this with that sharp top edge what happens? When you go to head the nail a small amount of metal is forged downward into the hole in the header. Because of the mass of the metal in the shank of the nail and because the metal right at the head is usually hotter you will get a small amount of upsetting just below the sharp edge of the nail header. This upset is now larger than the opening at the top of the nail head and locks the nail into the header. "Game Over". The idea being to round over or smooth out the edges. With no sharp edges there is nothing to catch and you won't get your nails stuck. Here is the link to the article. http://www.piehtoolco.com/Product_Info/nailheading.htm It gives a very detailed description of making nail headers and their use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I have also found that heat is crucial. I have made many many nails myself and the thing that will help the most is making sure the nail is at forging heat while you are heading. Many people think that as long as it is red when you begin heading that's enough. However, if you keep working the head while it goes through the black range it can get hard enough to deform the header and get stuck. You will get a better shaped head and the nail will drop out easily if you work quickly enough for the head to still be red after you're finished. If the nail is black when it comes out of the header you were too slow. Should be red when it hits the floor. This is not easy! takes a lot of practice, but this is the thing to work towards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 Thanks to all of you for the helpful replies!!! I'll go back to the forge,make another one, and let you know how it turns out. Eric S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 I use auto coil spring to forge my headers and heat treat them so that even black heat mild steel should not "deform the header"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted March 22, 2011 Author Share Posted March 22, 2011 K. Bryan: THANKS THANKS for the piehtool site!!!! The very first thing he said "hit the nail on the head"(Sorry). He said to NOT make the header the way books showed! My nails were doing exactly what he spoke about.They were mushrooming UNDER the header opening and couldn't come out!! Back to the drawing board. Thanks again. Eric S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K. Bryan Morgan Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Your welcome Eric. Sometimes I get lucky and find some good information. I'm glad you found it useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Yes that is a good article, but the Tom Clark header that I have does not look like that cross section at all, it is much like the one above it in the drawings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 22, 2011 Share Posted March 22, 2011 Yes that is a good article, but the Tom Clark header that I have does not look like that cross section at all, it is much like the one above it in the drawings Clinton; Tom Clarks headers were tapered with the large end at the top. What made them work though is that he rounded over the top corners a tad and smoothed the whole thing... After reflecting on this I am going to switch to his method. I often get a bit of crookedness in my nails right near the top... so close that I cannot straighten them out. I think that the Tom Clark approach will provide a bit more support within the header there and help me to eliminate that flaw. In any case I believe it is good to have a slight round on the top corners of the headers because that minute fillet helps to support and attach the head (besides making it easier to remove the finished nails). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fosterob Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 It seems for shorter nails the Tom Clark way is best and for longer nails with straight sides the Peter Ross way would work great. I have not tried the Peter Ross method but will next time I need nails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigfootnampa Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 BTW I have read (maybe in the Pieh tool article) that nails that are tapered all the way will just fall out... this is COMPLETE fallacy! I have made nails as short as 1" that taper rather sharply and hold stronger than any screws! A bit of straight shank is okay on longer nails but FAR from necessary! I currently have hanging on my bathroom door two robe hooks secured with two nails each... because the door (a two panel fir door) is only 1 5/16" thick and I chose not to clench the nails (for aesthetic sake) the nail length can only be just enough to penetrate the wood about 1 1/8" For the sake of the look and to get a bit more holding power, I made these nails with rather largish heads and about 1/4" maximum shank widths. The hooks have been in place and in daily use for well over a year now and show absolutely NO sign of working loose whatsoever... you can even wiggle the whole door by wiggling the hooks! The selfsame door has a doorstop that is held by two nails cantilevering a scroll spring. Each time the door opens against the doorstop it levers the nails outward. The nails have never loosened at all. The only modern nails that I have encountered with even remotely comparable holding power are the glued and ring shanked nails that I used to use for decking with my air nailer... to remove a deck board it would have to be destroyed (believe me I KNOW). It is a wonder that these nails can hold so well! I theorize that it has much to do with the slight textures introduced by the hammer and anvil and also the roughness from scale formation. I also believe that the tapered shape is an important contributor. Whatever the exact mechanical properties involved are, I view the results as near magical! Like manna from the God of Carpenters! I recently had to deal with a door that was not fitting into the jamb because crumbled plaster had filtered into the space between the door jamb and the log wall behind it and pushed the jamb too far into the doorway. I used some spring steel spikes driven through the jamb into the logs to crush the plaster crumbles and force the jamb back into position... I doubt that screws could have accomplished the feat but for my spring steel spikes it was NO CONTEST, GAME OVER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 I humbly submit that these various methods are designed to produce different shaped nails. The "Peter Ross" method is designed to produce the type of nails made during the 15th, 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries. They had rectangular (not square) shanks that were straight for half their length and tapered for half, and relatively small heads. Also, they had to be made to standard size (plus or minus 1/16 when you lay them out side by side to compare). The header and the method are designed to produce that result. To a large degree, the end product determines the method and the tools. The "Peter Ross" method is mostly derived from studying old tools, written accounts, and surviving nails. Plus a few thousand hours of trial and error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 It would be interesting to see a breakdown on nail shapes by century and country. I would have no problem believing that different locations could have different nail shapes at different times and that back in the renaissance a woodworker might be able to guess where a piece was made by how the nails looked! Standardization across a broad range is a *very* recent development! (Of course local standardization may be common---especially in small places where *one* smithy might be responsible of all of them and those smiths all trained/worked under the same person originally.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 23, 2011 Share Posted March 23, 2011 Clinton; Tom Clarks headers were tapered with the large end at the top. What made them work though is that he rounded over the top corners a tad and smoothed the whole thing... After reflecting on this I am going to switch to his method. I often get a bit of crookedness in my nails right near the top... so close that I cannot straighten them out. I think that the Tom Clark approach will provide a bit more support within the header there and help me to eliminate that flaw. In any case I believe it is good to have a slight round on the top corners of the headers because that minute fillet helps to support and attach the head (besides making it easier to remove the finished nails). Ok I took another look at the nail header that I got from Tom Clark and yes it is tapered with the large end at top, but he then used another larger size square drift from the back side to relieve that area, so the taper only goes about half way, kind of an hourglass shape Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric sprado Posted March 24, 2011 Author Share Posted March 24, 2011 Whew-Who would have thought so much goes in to nail making!!!!! Could you tell me the THICKNESS of the actual working part of Tom Clark's header? Thanks again for all your replies!!!! Eric S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clinton Posted March 24, 2011 Share Posted March 24, 2011 Whew-Who would have thought so much goes in to nail making!!!!! Could you tell me the THICKNESS of the actual working part of Tom Clark's header? Thanks again for all your replies!!!! Eric S. The thickness is about 3/8 of an inch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Actually, I have been surprised at how standardized a lot of English hardware and tools were by 1600. Even by 1700, much ironwork was being wholesaled and exported. It was made to standard patterns and sizes to match catalog pictures, and left little room for an individual to express himself. As far as nails go, examples from the English Midlands from 1600 or 1700 do not differ much from Roman examples found in Great Britain. roughly same shape heads , shanks, etc. Of course there are peculiarities from one shop to another and one smith to another, but the design and method of execution is almost identical in pieces known to originate many miles and years apart. There is more to this than an apprentice or two following the path of one master. There are a couple of good books on this subject if you're interested. Kind of a dry read, but full of good tidbits. "Masters and Men" by Gena Rowlands is a good start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silkhopesmith Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Actually, I have been surprised at how standardized a lot of English hardware and tools were by 1600. Even by 1700, much ironwork was being wholesaled and exported. It was made to standard patterns and sizes to match catalog pictures, and left little room for an individual to express himself. As far as nails go, examples from the English Midlands from 1600 or 1700 do not differ much from Roman examples found in Great Britain. roughly same shape heads , shanks, etc. Of course there are peculiarities from one shop to another and one smith to another, but the design and method of execution is almost identical in pieces known to originate many miles and years apart. There is more to this than an apprentice or two following the path of one master. There are a couple of good books on this subject if you're interested. Kind of a dry read, but full of good tidbits. "Masters and Men" by Gena Rowlands is a good start. Sorry, I was responding to Thomas Powers post #20. Came out in the wrong place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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