New to welding

[Cole Cross]

I am new to welding and I was looking at harbor freights 90a flux welder. This one here Will this work pretty well for general blacksmithing? Or should I go with a lincoln stick welder?

[arftist]

Go with the Lincoln.

[Cole Cross]

Go with the Lincoln.

I hear a lot of horror stories about using a stick with thinner metals. Perhaps some clarification would clear some of this up?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The answer depends on what you are using it for? There is no one size fits all. I have 4 MIG,and 2 Stick/TIG welders. They range from 100A-650A

MIG welders are nice for quick tacks, and lighter material (with thinner wire). A larger unit can do heavier material with larger bare wire, or flux core wire. I have done 1/2" plate with a big MIG running bare wire, and thicker yet with core wire. I have 4 MIGs, the smallest is the Lincoln SP-100 110V. I have done 1/4" in a single pass, and thicker with multiple passes, and correct weld preps. I would make sure it can do bare wire also (shielding gas adapted). You get less splatter with gas, and can do thinner materials than with flux cored. Flux core gives deeper penetration, and also allows you to weld outside in a breeze that would blow the gas away. Also having gas available you can do stainless, and aluminum.

Stick will give you deeper penetration, and lay down some big beads. For thin stuff you can use a piece of core wire instead of a regular stick. Just pull some off the spool,and pull it straight. For a stick welder go with an AC/DC machine, as they are more versatile. 7018 runs sweet on DC reverse polarity. It is on of my favorite rods to use.

I would say the MIG is easier to learn,as it is pretty much point, and shoot. Stick will take more practice to get the hang of striking the arc, and running a bead. Now if ya really want to have some fun you get a TIG. I would also suggest that you look into some night welding classes at your local community college.

I wouldn't buy any Harbor Freight welder. There are plenty of good name brand welders on the market. Check your local Craigslist listings. All of mine, except the SP-100, came from auctions.

[arftist]

I hear a lot of horror stories about using a stick with thinner metals. Perhaps some clarification would clear some of this up?

Yeah, buy a Lincoln mig. I have some of the first Lincoln welders I ever bought. I don't have any of the chinese crap I never bought.

[maddog]

I hear a lot of horror stories about using a stick with thinner metals. Perhaps some clarification would clear some of this up?

There are three overlapping options: Stick, MIG and fluxcored wirefeed. Stick is the oldest and in some aspects the most versatile. It is also the hardest to learn. Any welding process requires a significant investment in practice and study.

A quick comparison.

Stick:
The oldest of the three. Hardest to learn. Easy to swap out rods for different metals. Does thick metal easily. Makes strong welds easily. Takes a lot of skill to use on thin sheet metal and the results look nasty even then. Welds are messy with flux and weld spatter. The welders are cheap.

MIG:

Easy to learn to run a pretty bead. A pretty bead is not the same as a strong bead but that too is easier on MIG. Requires no flux. Welds are very clean with little spatter. Can weld 22 ga or perhaps thinner sheet metal without much difficulty. Changing out wire spools is a PITA. The gas tanks are heavy and you cant run long leads like with a stick welder so you have to drag the rig and the tanks around. Doesn't work well outdoors in a breeze because the gas shield is blown away. Neither the weldor nor the gas tank are cheap.

Wirefeed/fluxcore:

Sorta like Mig without the gas. The flux is built in to the wire. Probably about as easy to learn as MIG. The welds are messier. It does thin metal but not as thin as MIG. A wire feed rig is quite a bit more expensive than stick for the same capacity. Same nuisance as MIG in changing spools and short leads.

Being able to weld opens up a range of possibilities that will quickly justify the investment in time and money. You can make all sorts of tools, work tables and stands, even simple machines. And of course, it will be very useful in smithing projects too. There is no other process for joining materials that is as quick, easy, strong and cheap as welding.

IMO stick is a very good choice for a hobby blacksmith shop if you are willing to invest the time. You need to weld a lot more heavy steel than you do sheet metal. You also get a lot of capacity for the money. If you are learning, a box that does DC as well as AC is a must. I recommend the Hobart Stickmate or its Miller equivalent over the Lincoln because they have continuous current adjustment. The Lincoln has only fixed steps and they are coarse settings. For small stuff and sheet metal, consider and oxy acet rig in addition.

Stick welders are very simple machines and it makes some sense to buy a cheapy brand. But MIGs and wirefeeds are a lot more complicated and fussy. IMO one should only buy a top quality brand for these processes.

A good craftsman can get results from second rate tools but an apprentice faces enough difficulty without having to struggle with deficiencies in his equipment.

If you are in my neck of the woods, I do have a Stickmate for sale. No this wasnt a sales pitch Just mentioning it. This is a machine that will sell itself.

[ironsmith]

well, maddog pretty much summed it up there, that was a good description and break down of each...

[pkrankow]

Stick with name brand and you can service it.

On material use, stick puts down about 50% of its weight, flux core puts down over 80%, and gas shield up to 98% by weight.

Phil

[Timothy Miller]

Will this work pretty well for general blacksmithing?

I don't mean to be a smarty pants but you can't blacksmith with a welder. You weld with a welder. You blacksmith with a forge anvil and hammer. They are two distinct types of metal working. But most people do blacksmith also weld.

[evfreek]

How important is sheet metal to you? What do you plan to use it for?

If you really want to buy that Harbor Freight mig welder, be aware that it is missing a lot of important parts that you will need to add to make it weld like a name brand welder. There is an ongoing thread at www.weldingweb.com on exactly what to do. Otherwise, it will barely work and most people either mod them up or throw them away. Just because it says "China" doesn't mean that it is bad. Of course, that may be a good indication. Once I made a bunch of tools and stamped them "China". I showed them to a Chinese (supremacist) and she sniffed up her nose and said, eeew, looks like they were made in America

Here's what I used my stick welder for recently:

weld up some guards for a wheel grinder (14 ga, so they weren't really sheet metal)
weld an angle tool rest
join a foot to my anvil (1 1/2" thick full pen weld)
fix a junk pair of tongs

If you can find an inexpensive welding class in a community college or adult education place, I would echo the others' recommendations to take it. You will learn a lot about what welders can do and what you want them for. Make sure that the classroom is well-equipped and that you get plenty of time behind the hood. You'll be telling the newbies what to do in no time.

[Hillbillysmith]

As a professional welder, I'd have to say the first thing you need to do is decide what you are going to be welding ie; thin/thick: mild steel, stainless steel, aluminum, piping, etc... I will agree that stick welding is the oldest and one of the most versatile processes on the market for the money you pay. But on the other hand, I will also agree that welding thin material with stick is difficult for even an experienced welder. Here's a breakdown of the processes.

-Shielded Metal Arc Welding (Stick welding)
Cheap, versatile, all position welding process that can give you a quality weld with varying penetration rates depending on position, amperage, and electrode type. High selection of welding electrodes allows you to weld many types of material with a range of thicknesses. Has a high resistance to outdoor atmospheres most of all the wind. AC/DC machine is highly recommended to get the most "bang for your buck".

-Gas Metal Arc Welding (MIG welding)
Uses a solid wire with an auxiliary shielding gas. A little more expensive to run than stick but is much easier to weld thin material and a good overall process to learn with. Depending on the mode of transfer you set the machine up with, penetration is typically not as high as stick welding. Weld bead has less spatter, better looking, and much less cleanup than stick. These machines run on DC polarity only.

-Flux Cored Arc Welding (Flux Core)
With this process you typically have two choices, self-shielded and gas-shielded (dual shield). Self-shielded wire is much like stick welding in that there is no need for an auxiliary shielding gas. The flux is contained inside the tubular wire and leaves a slag when finished welding. This has high resistance to wind like stick welding does. It's cheaper than MIG because you can use a "flux core only" machine (like the one you have picked out; it doesn't have a gas hook-up). High deposition and penetration rate not really recommended for thinner material (depending on wire size). Gas-shielded flux core is essentially the same as self-shielded except it requires a shielding gas in which case it uses the same machine as a MIG. (A MIG machine is capable of running all three wires; solid, self-shielded, and gas-shielded). *NEVER USE A SHIELDING GAS WITH A SELF-SHIELDED FLUX CORE WIRE*

-Gas Tungsten Arc Welding (TIG welding)
This is the most expensive and most difficult to learn of the electrical processes. This runs on either AC or DC same as a stick machine but getting an AC/DC machine is just like stick; most "bang for your buck". This ALWAYS requires a shielding gas. Able to weld metal of all thicknesses (although not practical on heavy metal because its a slow process). Has the highest quality and best looking weld bead. Able to weld all types of weldable materials; aluminum to mild steel, stainless steel to tool steel, magnesium to titanium, cast iron to copper. A TIG machine will also run stick electrodes (given you have the stick welding lead for the machine). This is a very nice machine to have because if you want to weld something thick but need a high quality root pass, you can TIG weld the first pass of two, then switch over to stick to finish. I highly recommend that if you go with this process that you take a few cheap classes at the local trade center to get to know the controls. *IF WELDING MUCH ALUMINUM, A WATER-COOLED SYSTEM IS HIGHLY RECOMMENDED*

-Oxy/Acetylene Welding (Gas welding / Torch welding)
Uses the same outfit as a cutting torch (also called a gas axe) but uses a different tip. Not a very practical process to use anymore but it is the most versatile process. Doesn't require any electric so there's no wires or cords. Welds thin to thick material. Able to weld aluminum, copper, mild steel, tool steel, cast iron, and able to braze (not the same as welding) dissimilar metals such as copper to aluminum, aluminum to steel, etc. Quite cheap to run but SLOW and (I believe) the MOST difficult to WELD with. Brazing isn't as hard as welding but till slow. *ONLY ABLE TO WELD WITH ACETYLENE FUEL GAS BUT CAN CUT AND BRAZE WITH ALL OTHER FUEL GASSES*

There are also multi-process machines available (they run Stick, MIG, TIG, and Flux Core). These machines are by far the most expensive to buy and not practical for the everyday home user.

So, all in all, you have five processes to choose from; Stick, MIG, Flux Core (self and gas-shielded), TIG, and Oxy/Acetylene. The process you choose will depend on your needs and how much you have to spend. Personally, I would choose an AC/DC TIG/Stick machine (but I already know how to TIG weld). The reason I would choose this is because of the range of material, position, and thickness it can weld and you have two machines in one. I have been looking at a few machines and I find the Miller Dynasty 200 series machine. In my area you can pick one up brand new for around $4,000.... Now, for a newby welder I would recommend a MIG welding machine (this can run solid wire with a shielding gas, self-shielded flux core wire, and gas-shielded flux core wire). You can get these machines that run off a 110V power supply (regular house plug) or a 220V power supply (garage power, or what an electric stove or dryer plugs into. SOME machines can even run both 110V and 220V. You can pick up a decent name brand 110V machine for around $200-$400. Naturally a 220V machine will cost slightly more. Whatever you choose, try your best to take a few cheap classes at the local trade/tech center or see if somebody on here who knows how to weld is close enough and willing to work with you a little bit.

Best of luck and I hope I was able to shed a little light on the subject!
-Hillbilly

P.S
I have a HUGE breakdown of electrodes and their classification, welding leads and cables, and I believe gasses (can't remember) on here somewhere. I found a link but I think its so old that it's been erased from the system all the great upgrades Glenn has made to the sight.

[arftist]

Just have to throw out there that the Dynasty has NOTHING over the Thermal Dynamics version, for half the price. Made in USA, good warrentee, awsome customer service, serious machine. And yes, I have used them both, for a lot of time.

[maddog]

As a professional welder,... Here's a breakdown of the processes.

Thank you for taking the time to post that. That overview together with your description of electrodes would be a very useful resource.

I have stick and oxy acet. My stick machine will do TIG but I am still busy learning stick and gas.

A few comments to add to what people have said.

In electrical welding there has recently been an important change in technology. The traditional machines were all based on huge and heavy transformers. These are being replaced by machines with semiconductor inverters that weigh about 1/10th of the old machines, are much more compact and capable of a wide range of waveforms. I have an old IdealArc TIG 300Amp which is about the size of a small fridge and weighs 800lbs. I think you can get an inverter based machine with same capacity that fits in a suitcase and is light enough to carry or at least lug. This means that the older machines can be found second hand for good prices.

evfreek makes an important point about hidden costs. This applies to second hand machines too and even to some extent to a brand new good quality welder. On a stick machine you will probably want longer and heavier leads. You may need to wire 220 into your shop. You need a good helmet - don't go cheap on that, it makes a big difference. A grinder is a necessity and a chopsaw highly desirable. Learning will cost money whether you take a course or buy instructional material. At the very least you need materials to practice with. The old adage is that you have to burn 50# of rod to learn stick. It took me a whole lot more.

I am very happy with stick for all the heavy stuff and acetylene for the small stuff and brazing. A torch is extremely useful and can be used for cutting and bending as well.

To add to evfreeks list of examples of using a welder:

A lot of anvil tools.
A bench grinder.
A very heavy duty work bench (weighs 1000lbs) and a very solid forge table with tool racks and other nice features.
A nice rack to hold all my clamps and several other racks for storing steel stock.
Some top and hand tools by welding a piece of tool steel for the working end onto a bar of mild steel.
Anvil repairs and mods.
Anvil stand swedge block stand and a vise stand.
A propane forge.
Welding a tab onto a piece of 3" pipe so I could hold it in the vise to work on the end.

Without a welder these things would have been very expensive or very difficult or just plain impossible.

Today I needed to thread a 10/32 nut onto the end of a bolt in a very tight blind space around a corner. With my gas torch I welded a piece of gas rod onto the nut put a few bends in it and was able to hold it in place while I threaded the bolt into it. Took about 10 minutes of cursing and fumbling but had I not been able to weld I would have had to spend a day taking the whole machine apart.

[Mainely,Bob]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the best bang for the buck for a newbie is going to be a torch set.No electric machine is anywhere near as versatile as a set of torches.

With a good(meaning name brand) torch set you can solder,weld,braze,heat for bending and cut a wide variety of materials all for far less than a used welding machine.
I say your first welding purchase ought to be a set of torches and tanks.

[HWHII]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that the best bang for the buck for a newbie is going to be a torch set.No electric machine is anywhere near as versatile as a set of torches.

With a good(meaning name brand) torch set you can solder,weld,braze,heat for bending and cut a wide variety of materials all for far less than a used welding machine.
I say your first welding purchase ought to be a set of torches and tanks.

I agree with what Mainely Bob say's here. The best bang for the buck and most versitile piece of equipment you can have and very portable.

[Cole Cross]

I don't mean to be a smarty pants but you can't blacksmith with a welder. You weld with a welder. You blacksmith with a forge anvil and hammer. They are two distinct types of metal working. But most people do blacksmith also weld.

I am mostly wanting one for tacking things together like when doing forge welding for instance, anvil making/mods, and if any other occasions arise be it for blacksmithing or general house maintenance.

[Dragons lair]

Just a few more thoughts. First a torch set 2nd a brand mame convertable mig then a portable rig. Why? My first portable was an old Arco wasp 140 amp AC with a 4300watt gen. Paid $75 and $38 to get it runnimg. mostly sat in the shed. Old friend(disabled vet) bought a lot of tools at $40 a mounth spotted it asked if he could have it. Told him if I could find a bigger AC-DC rig he could have it. A week later in the local paper was a lincoln G7 225 amp AC-DC
CC-CV 7KW gen unit for $125 3.5 miles away. Had a dropped valve seat and a flat tire. It came home the wasp went.
Few hrs work and $25 for a battery it lives. Last 4 day power outage the Colman 5K powered the house and the G7 powered the shop. Just something to think about if ya live with power losses. Yeh we can tough out no showers no lights. just fire up the camp stove and were good to go. OOps the toilet don't flush. Lets see the well pump and the woodstove blower don't work along with the freezer and fridge. Even worse no TV or internet. Love my gen and backup gen. I can go out behind the bush but momma ain't hearing that.
Ken.

[kraythe]

I dont know if I would reccomend torch welding to a newbie to welding. A torch is a great thing to have around the shop though.

A good mig welder is cheap and can use fluxcore wire for better penetration. Stay away from 120v machines as they wont have the umph you want. I use a Lincoln 180HD with .045 flux core wire most of the time. Just learn the diff between a pretty weld and a good one.

[arftist]

I dont know if I would reccomend torch welding to a newbie to welding. A torch is a great thing to have around the shop though.

A good mig welder is cheap and can use fluxcore wire for better penetration. Stay away from 120v machines as they wont have the umph you want. I use a Lincoln 180HD with .045 flux core wire most of the time. Just learn the diff between a pretty weld and a good one.

Just curious, why would you not recomend torch welding to a newbie?

I was able to readily learn arc welding because I understood a puddle from gas welding. I was able to learn TIG welding because I was used to having a torch in one hand and a filler rod in the other.

I was able to learn MIG welding because it is so easy, even a caveman could do it.

The beauty of having a torch set for your first welding setup is that you need it anyway. How much stuff are you going to build with just an electric welder?

[cavala]

I agree 100%.

I was able to learn MIG welding because it is so easy, even a caveman could do it.

The beauty of having a torch set for your first welding setup is that you need it anyway. How much stuff are you going to build with just an electric welder?

[kraythe]

Just curious, why would you not recomend torch welding to a newbie?

I was able to readily learn arc welding because I understood a puddle from gas welding. I was able to learn TIG welding because I was used to having a torch in one hand and a filler rod in the other.

I was able to learn MIG welding because it is so easy, even a caveman could do it.

The beauty of having a torch set for your first welding setup is that you need it anyway. How much stuff are you going to build with just an electric welder?

Torch welding is like TIG but with a LOT more heat being put into the piece. As you preheat the piece it gets very hot and not in the localized manner of a TIG torch. The whole piece gets hot which can lead to warpage and a ton of other potential problems. Also with a torch it took me 2 years to learn to weld in odd positions and 1 year to learn to do good fillets. With a torch it is insanely easy to blow through the vertical piece on a T fillet weld or even the edges on a corner weld. Doing vertical up is not super hard but the puddle runs much faster because of the enormous amount of heat into the piece. With thin metal you WILL blow through it or not achieve fusion in your first 200 beads or so. Finally torch welding is much much slower than MIG welding. Don't get me wrong ,I don't regret doing it but it is significantly harder and might frustrate a newbie to welding much more.

Also in the area of safety the OxyAcetylene torch is probably the most dangerous thing I have in the shop. Run the Acetylene at over 15 psi and the bottle could spontaneously explode, forget to allow the acetylene to settle and get acetone in your regulators and you could get an explosion. Dont chain your bottles to the wall and knock them over and you can turn the O2 bottle into a rocket that will blow through 2 foot thick cinderblock walls. Get Pure oxygen on your clothes and the smallest spark will make you go up like a roman candle. Touch the torch tip to the welding work when lit and if you dont have a flashback arrestor, the flame can burn right back through the lines and blow the acetylene bottle. Dont have backflow preventers on your lines and high pressure o2 can force its way into the acetylene bottle with potentially serious unfortunate results. An OA torch is something I advise everyone to take a class on safety. That is where you will learn rules like "always A before O" and so on. Also if you have a cheap ***** harbor freight torch the backflow preventers and flashback preventers might be crap or completely missing and mocked up. My torch is a 600$ Victor Journeyman torch and worth every penny.

Go to smartflix.com and rent the MIG and FLUXCORE welding videos from wall mountain company. Then with an inexpensive welder you can run beads like a champ. Stay away from 120volt machines because they dont have enough umph. With a MIG / FLUXCORE welder, .045 wire and .025 wire you can weld anything from thin sheet to half inch plate in a single pass.

[BM454]

Many years ago when I went to welding school. (1988) I had to learn how to puddle with a welding tip on a torch. Once I could do that I went on to using filler wire to make a bead of weld. Then on to a butt joint and T joint. If you can get good with a torch just about everything else in welding comes with ease. It's a really good platform to start out on. I have 3 stick welders and all three of them are more or less useless without a good torch.

My suggestion is to find you a welding school and join (if you have the time). You can learn more in a few months than you can in years figuring it out for yourself. Welding is a wonderful trade and it pays well if you get into the right field. Good welders are in high demand at the moment too.

Scott

[pkrankow]

With a 120V mig machine my brother welds a whole lot of 1/4 inch and thicker material. You are right he cannot do this in one pass. 120V limitation is less of a limitation than it seems to be made out to be. Yes, there is a duty cycle, and yes it will not penetrate as deep, and yes it will not fill as quickly as a larger machine. The smaller machine in his case has several advantages. It is Dad's, so there is no equipment cost. The places he is using it also do not have 240V available without wiring in a new outlet (he has been repairing vehicle ramps and guards for an oil change chain). He had a outside company in to do this work with a generator trailer for larger machines, and he says the work was not done any faster. (this may have been a reference to the outside company would want the shop closed to do work, and my brother would go in on nights and weekends)

Yes, a 240V machine is going to have more capacity. This is an important consideration depending on what you expect from a machine. A 240V machine can also be dialed down. If this is a home use machine then staying with 120V machine may be capable of doing everything you need and more, without installing a special circuit.

My Dad's machine is a Hobart 140.

Phil

[arftist]

Like I said in another thread, to each his own. In this trade though, the blacksmith trade, the King of all trades, it is good to achieve at least journeyman status, if not master as many metalworking techniques as possible. Oxy-fuel is the most basic, most versatile, possibly most important. By the way, welding tips are available in many sizes, and the gas pressures are both adjustable. One of the first clues that you are using too much heat is when the work melts.

[maddog]

There are many paths to welding. Starting with gas is just one way. But I agree that there are a lot of advantages to starting with a torch. You can weld, braze, cut and bend with a torch rig. True the gas bottles are ****** dangerous but you are going to end up buying it anyway. It's hard to imagine a metal working shop without at torch. So why not buy it up front? Not only will you get welding but all the other functions too.

Gas welding is more difficult than MIG and if you just want to get welding quickly it may not be the best choice. But if you do invest the time you get a great return. It's quiet and much more relaxed than arc welding. No nasty UV. No cumbersome hood. Few sparks. You can see exactly what you are doing which means you can see how the puddle behaves. You learn a lot about manipulating a puddle and penetration. You can take your time. You have to learn heat management. Yes this is more of a problem with gas than other processes but you need this skill for all of them. You can do very small stuff and very thin sheet metal. I can weld 025 MIG wire together with my smallest torch. Gas or TIG make it easy to weld small leaves onto a main branch or repair cracks that might appear in your work. Heavy stuff is a PITA but it is possible.

I have one stick welder, an IdealArc 300, a small Harris oxy acet torch, an AllStates propane torch, a Smith Little Torch and a Smith air acet torch. I use them all.