Garage Floor vs Treadle Hammer?

[kraythe]

I just got my book of plans for the grasshopper treadle hammer and I am really looking forward to building it. I just had one question about the foundation for the hammer. I could put it in my garage that doubles as my shop and bolt it to the floor through concrete anchors but I am concerned I will crack the floor with working with the hammer. What do you think? Would a garage floor be strong enough to handle the pressure?

If not then I wonder what I can do as cutting up the floor and re-pouring is out of the question. Could I put an industral strength rubber mat under the hammer to cushion the blows between the floor and hammer? Then I could bolt through both the rubber and floor. What I worry about there is that I will diminish the capabilities of the hammer.

Any advice would be appreciated.

BTW anyone know where i can get an inexpensive 2k lb electric forklift or something similar to move heavy stuff around? I would love it cheap. I thought of an electric forklift but perhaps other people have better ideas.

[DennisG]

No idea on the floor but I have a question on the fork truck.....

Do you need one for personal use once or to always have around?

If it is for a one use thing why not think about a picker truck?

[Marc]

I don't think you need to worry about the floor. All the energy going into the floor is really coming from your leg, and there's not enough there to do too much damage. If you have an anvil with enough mass, that would be fine. I've got a relatively light (35 - lb) treadle hammer, but even a heavy one wouldn't be a problem. And from what I've read on the various forums, it takes a large-ish power hammer to start worrying about foundations.

[Sweany]

I ran a 25lb little giant on a 4'x4'x1-1/2" plywood pad in the garage for years, no problems.
I got that idea from a swordmaker in KC.
so the treadle should be fine.

craigslist on the lift, inexpensive?maybe you really need to check the battries on a used electric

[arftist]

I ran my seventyfive pound power hammer, 200 plus blows per minute in my garage, I don't think you have to worry about a treadle hammer. What types of things do you need to move? Pallet jacks are pretty versatile. For machines, peices of round bar and a pry bar can acomplish a lot.

[tlreif]

I use a pallet jack to move my flypress and anvil around. You can buy new for 200 bucks. It was a good investment.

[pkrankow]

I have been seeing used propane fork trucks for about $5K lately. Some have even been on the used car lots.

You can get an engine hoist for about $200 new, then its all muscle and mechanical advantage.

Phil

[knots]

My shop has a brick paver floor. After using my treadle hammer for a week or so the bricks below started to be driven into the ground.

Most treadle hammers have a smallish plate below the anvil pedestal. Mine had a 7" x 10" plate and it took no time for the brick floor to be packed down . I solved the problem by placing a larger 3/8" x12" x 22" plate below the original plate.

For your concrete floor my 7" x 10" plate would probably have been enough if the floor is properly reinforced, however It may not be. Think of it this way. Say your treadle ram is 40 pounds - If you had a steel plate on your concrete floor and you were hammering that plate with a 40 pound sledge hammer , how big would the plate need to be to distribute the impact load being imposed your floor to avoid cracks.

If you are really worried about the floor cracking use a bigger plate below the anvil pedestal. You could build the hammer with a standard size plate but space it up a half inch to accommodate a supplemental plate below.

[kraythe]

Thanks for the ideas on the floor. I have a ton of old OSB 3/4" sheets lying about and the bigger plate under the anvil is a good idea that I will have to check if it is possible.

As for the forklift, I would like to be able to move stuff around the shop that is really heavy but also be able to load and unload stuff from my pickup truck if possible and the truck won't fit in the garage

[ThomasPowers]

At our last conference our main demonstrator had broken his hand right before the conference and managed to unload and set up a 50# powerhammer, a treadle hammer and a rolling mill using an engine hoist that he had made a cradle for the top of the end to fit the inside top of the C frame of the hammer and the other tools. He had a pneumatic cylinder on it and used a small pancake compressor to do the lifting and then we just waltzed them into place.

Do you need a jib crane to swing stuff off the truck and into your garage?

[Chalky]

The concrete in my shop floor is old and crumbly and I have my hammer (a Mitchell - similar to a Little Giant) sitting on two sheets of thick rubber (old horse stable mats, scrap quarry coveyor belts work as well) with threaded bar resined into the floor up through the mounting holes. Between the hammer base and the nuts are two inch springs, not quite tightened down to allow a little play. This takes all the shock out but does allow the hammer to sway a little - not much.

Railway sleepers (Ties in the US!) make a good base sitting on dirt or sand. If you cut the concrete and set in wood it insulates vibration from the rest of the building.

[knots]

I hope that I am not beating a dead horse here but I think that there is an important distinction between power hammers and treadle hammer construction that needs to be considered when talking about the supporting floor structure.

Most of the smaller power hammers used by smiths are constructed with the sow block cast integral with the hammer frame. Consequently they have a large foot print over which the force of the ram blows are distributed. Most treadle hammers are built with the anvil pedestal without rigid attachment to the rest of the treadle hammer frame . I don't remember ever seeing a treadle hammer design with a full foot print base plate. For this reason I think that Kraythe's concern is valid. In most cases the power hammer example seems not to apply directly.

After all, the strength of a treadle hammer blow power depends on the velocity and weight of the ram, and is delivered indirectly to the floor below through a relatively lightly constructed pedestal and small base plate. A treadle hammer with a 35 to 40 pound head can deliver a powerful blow. Seems logical to me that caution is is a very good idea.

The ply wood base would probably do the job but a supplemental steel plate would be in the way less of a trip hazard.

Now there are some smaller power hammers which have a Floating Sow Block. As it happens my hammer is one of those. I would venture a guess that a four inch thick concrete slab foundation, under my machine, would have been pulverized in short order . I cast a 12" thick, heavily reinforced concrete inertia block to support my machine. The power hammer and inertia block sit on my brick shop floor. All very solid.

[ThomasPowers]

Making the assumption that a treadle hammer's anvil is "relatively lightly constructed"! I have 5.25" solid for mine along with a 1" thick base plate.

[arftist]

I hope that I am not beating a dead horse here but I think that there is an important distinction between power hammers and treadle hammer construction that needs to be considered when talking about the supporting floor structure.

Most of the smaller power hammers used by smiths are constructed with the sow block cast integral with the hammer frame. Consequently they have a large foot print over which the force of the ram blows are distributed. Most treadle hammers are built with the anvil pedestal without rigid attachment to the rest of the treadle hammer frame . I don't remember ever seeing a treadle hammer design with a full foot print base plate. For this reason I think that Kraythe's concern is valid. In most cases the power hammer example seems not to apply directly.

After all, the strength of a treadle hammer blow power depends on the velocity and weight of the ram, and is delivered indirectly to the floor below through a relatively lightly constructed pedestal and small base plate. A treadle hammer with a 35 to 40 pound head can deliver a powerful blow. Seems logical to me that caution is is a very good idea.

The ply wood base would probably do the job but a supplemental steel plate would be in the way less of a trip hazard.

Now there are some smaller power hammers which have a Floating Sow Block. As it happens my hammer is one of those. I would venture a guess that a four inch thick concrete slab foundation, under my machine, would have been pulverized in short order . I cast a 12" thick, heavily reinforced concrete inertia block to support my machine. The power hammer and inertia block sit on my brick shop floor. All very solid.

I am not sure what you are thinking, but when my power hammer is jumping up in the air and walking across the floor because the 650 pound anvil, welded to the 1.5" thick base plate isn't heavey enough to hold it down, at a rate of well over 200 bounces per minute, I garantee that more energy is going into the slab than a treadle hammer could ever generate. The footprint of my machine is 24"x40". I got sick of it following me around and bolted it down.

[knots]

I am not sure what you are thinking, but when my power hammer is jumping up in the air and walking across the floor because the 650 pound anvil, welded to the 1.5" thick base plate isn't heavey enough to hold it down, at a rate of well over 200 bounces per minute, I garantee that more energy is going into the slab than a treadle hammer could ever generate. The footprint of my machine is 24"x40". I got sick of it following me around and bolted it down.

My comments are limited to "Smaller Power Hammers" and treadle hammers. Your machine is out of my league. Hope the bolts hold.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

For a forklift look on Craigslist. Here in the Las Vegas area I saw an LP 5K Yale go for Free-lasted 20 minutes. It ran but was missing a tooth off the flywheel , so you needed to rotate a little by hand every once in awhile.

I picked up a 5K Toyota low mast diesel for $800. Max lift is 79", and will easily fit in a standard house garage. I also bought an 8K Champ rough terrain lift with a 25'-30' reach for $3,500.

There are multiple lifts that I have seen in the $2,000, or less range.

I would stay away from electric, and look at LP, or gas. Between the chargers, the cost of batteries, and required maintenance I wouldn't get one.

I like diesel due the fuel not going bad no matter how long it sits. I have never had a problem with water, but others may depending on where you live. Here in the desert fuel can go bad very quickly. The Toyota I bought had sat outside for 2 years-fired right up with the fuel that was in the tank. The Champ has a Ford 300 6, so I just put enough gas in it to do what I need to do, and try not to leave too much in the tank when I am done.

Propane/LP-clean, and can be used indoors. Cons, dealing with tanks, can freeze up the carb in cold climates, and if you run out in the middle of the night, you may not be able to get the tank filled till morning. My 7K TowMotor is a Continental flathead 4 converted to LP.

Tires- hard tires = pavement/concrete. Watch asphalt when it is really hot, as they will sink in.

cushion=pavement, hard packed dirt/gravel. If it doesn't have a valve stem it is a cushion tire. I see a lot of them misidentified on the listings as pneumatic.

Pneumatic=all terrain

[Dragons lair]

For a forklift look on Craigslist. Here in the Las Vegas area I saw an LP 5K Yale go for Free-lasted 20 minutes. It ran but was missing a tooth off the flywheel , so you needed to rotate a little by hand every once in awhile.

I picked up a 5K Toyota low mast diesel for $800. Max lift is 79", and will easily fit in a standard house garage. I also bought an 8K Champ rough terrain lift with a 25'-30' reach for $3,500.

There are multiple lifts that I have seen in the $2,000, or less range.

I would stay away from electric, and look at LP, or gas. Between the chargers, the cost of batteries, and required maintenance I wouldn't get one.

I like diesel due the fuel not going bad no matter how long it sits. I have never had a problem with water, but others may depending on where you live. Here in the desert fuel can go bad very quickly. The Toyota I bought had sat outside for 2 years-fired right up with the fuel that was in the tank. The Champ has a Ford 300 6, so I just put enough gas in it to do what I need to do, and try not to leave too much in the tank when I am done.

Propane/LP-clean, and can be used indoors. Cons, dealing with tanks, can freeze up the carb in cold climates, and if you run out in the middle of the night, you may not be able to get the tank filled till morning. My 7K TowMotor is a Continental flathead 4 converted to LP.

Tires- hard tires = pavement/concrete. Watch asphalt when it is really hot, as they will sink in.

cushion=pavement, hard packed dirt/gravel. If it doesn't have a valve stem it is a cushion tire. I see a lot of them misidentified on the listings as pneumatic.

Pneumatic=all terrain

Just a note here. A solid tire lift will word most places IF ya know what ya are doing. Worked in many shops that said hard tires only on concrete. One boss told our mgr if i got the hard tire stuck I would be fired. unloaded the truck and dragged the air tired lift inside. Moved up to 10,000 lbs outdoors with a hard tired clark.
Ken.

[ianinsa]

On the question of forklifts, we got rid of our electric forklift and bought a really old skidsteer(got it cheap so we needed to replace hoses and some seals) it took quite a bit of time but not much money we then made up a forklift set-up by buying a tineset from a junked forklift, this is now a cheap & cheerful and very versatile baby.
Ian

[pkrankow]

Propane/LP-clean, and can be used indoors. Cons, dealing with tanks, can freeze up the carb in cold climates,

This is one in the kisser. Had that happen once at work, was close to 0F and we were 2 skids into a 4 skid truck. I got called in early (store manager was receiving the truck) and the three of us (driver was #3) unloaded the rest of our skids by hand. Couldn't start the fork till about noon when the temperature got up to the low 20's F.

Supposedly idling the fork in the (relatively) warm building with the door open for about 10-20 minutes would have prevented this from happening in the first place. The back room was below freezing too.

Phil

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The hard tires won't navigate my gravel driveway, too loose, and it just sinks in. On a hot day I sank my TowMotor up to the weight in an asphalt parking lot. The TowMotor weighs 10K. A lot of weight on fairly narrow tires.

When I moved my lathe to the new shop, we borrowed another lift. I had the lathe (5,200#) on the forks, and I could feel the lift sinking into the parking lot. We ended up just backing the trailer under the lathe to keep from destroying the asphalt.

My TowMotor has a nasty problem with freezing the carb, so I stuck a piece of big Tygon tubing in the exhaust pipe, and routed it to blow on the carb. That finally kept it warm enough to keep running. Before, we would thaw it out with warm water to get it restarted, then quickly back into the shop.

I have found out that having a forklift is one of those things that you don't realize that you need one till you get one. Then you wonder why you didn't get one earlier.

[Dragons lair]

Not sure how we got on forklifts but my favorite was a V80 cat diesel with dual air tires.
Qualification was take a 20ft bundle of steel thru a 12 ft door and a 8 million dollar motion ride(20Ft and 12+ thousand lbs) out the 12 ft door across a gravel lot thru a 10Foot chain link gate across a crowned road. Be able to wizz across the shop and crack a hardboiled egg with the fork. now in my shop its a skid steer with forks. Thru the door square turn and set it on the bench, Damm I miss that big cat.
Ken.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

You can make some money picking a nickel off the floor with a forklift tine. B)

[bkforge]

If you use a solid anvil--not a hollow tube--of sufficient size, the floor should be fine. Anvil to hammer ratio of at least 6 to 1.

[pkrankow]

You can make some money picking a nickel off the floor with a forklift tine.

Yes, yes I have!

Phil

[pkrankow]

Not sure how we got on forklifts but my favorite was a V80 cat diesel with dual air tires.
Qualification was take a 20ft bundle of steel thru a 12 ft door and a 8 million dollar motion ride(20Ft and 12+ thousand lbs) out the 12 ft door across a gravel lot thru a 10Foot chain link gate across a crowned road. Be able to wizz across the shop and crack a hardboiled egg with the fork. now in my shop its a skid steer with forks. Thru the door square turn and set it on the bench, Damm I miss that big cat.
Ken.

My guess is you have to turn through these narrow openings...

Phil