bipolarandy Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Hi guys, I just put together the makings for some pipe damascus, its just a 1" pipe filled with iron shavings and some drill filings with the ends capped and welded. But, I was wondering, when I heat this in my forge, is it gonna blow up? I mean, its sealed pertty air tight. Will that be a problem? Do I need to drill a hole in it? I dont wanna blow up my new forge, or me. So any help would be great. -Andrei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Andy I wouldnt think it'd blow up, I'd think that if anything happens like a build up of gas from cutting oil on those drill shavings it may crack and vent at one of the welds. (I' ve never tried to weld one completly closed and totally airtight before.) A trick Stan, aka Trying-it tought me was to put a little sawdust in the "can " to eat all the oxygen in the can. Some guys use WD-40 as a binder and O2 eater, I havent tried that yet , but the sawdust or pinch of powdered charcoal in the can has been working great for me. Have fun and show us what you come up with . Oh ! it also helps to pack and ram the (STEEL ) powder and (STEEL) shavings as tight as possible, and go gentile on the first couple of welds. On the first welding heat the tube feels like trying to hammer on stuffed manocotti after the 2nd or 3rd weld it starts to feel like normal barstock. Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primtechsmith Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Hey how about somebody giving me a little how to on this...I have an idea what you do, but I am not as smart as I think I am sometimes... :-) Peyton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Hmm that 'd make a nice BP I wonder if I can get a camera operator in the shop with me this weekend. Jens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 What you describe is indeed a pipe bomb, I drill two one sixteenth inch holes close together on the end that will will have pointed away from me in the fire. As another level of protectrion do not walk in front of the forge in any area that the pipe could rocket out and hit you, Unlikely but who knows. Personnaly I would never use pipe for this as I do not want the material pipe is made from to be part of a knife blade. Nor do I want the hassle of grinding it all off of the billet. You could weld up a container of a material more appropriate to a billet and then let it be a part of the whole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Continued from above. Think about what is in the future for this billet you have in mind. Is the billet made from iron shavings and drill filings going to be up to what you have in mind. And of course what was drilled to obtain these filings? If you make something ornamental almost anything looks great. If you have a cutting edge or whatever you wish you need to consider the billets make-up,,And remember as bad as smithing is an addiction,,,damascus is worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakwoodforge Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Rich, I'll recind what I said earlier, and say instead that I've never welded a can completly airtight. And ditto on the use of good steel if your going to spend the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 damascus addicting??...I don't think so. I quit doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rthibeau Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Does anyone have a source for L6 besides sawmill bandsaw blades? I got a quote for 3/8" x 2" x 10' for $305 !!! That's $30 a foot for plain metal! I'd like to try it on my next damascus billet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 Jens I read pipe with welded on caps,,Methinks that is different than a fabricated can, but iI do tend to go towards the safe side of things..One rule in my shop is to look close at what I am about to do and think about what is the worst thing that can happen here.. Rt You may lookk up some 15N20, it is the same as L-6 for everything I know to do with it. K and G has it in small quantities. E me if y9ou need contact info...enjoy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 19, 2006 Share Posted October 19, 2006 What Rich said about the pipe bomb!!!!!! Never but Never heat a completely sealed container especially if it has some sort of flammable material inside unless, of course, you would like a new address with 17 different zip codes. If you are going to make knife, it is better to use known materials, I obtained a quart can of powdered 1084 for about $26 check with Garey Ford I think he has a source of powdered L-6 or 15N20 which is very similar in makeup. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bipolarandy Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 well, i just forge welded that pipe, and it didn't blow up on me... so i guess im lucky or somethin' :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyler Murch Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Richard..Check southerntoolsteel.com. what's about Kelly's 15N20? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 The kill zone of a pipe bomb is greater than you realize. The injury zone from the concussion and the shrapnel is well beyond your personal space. If you survive, there is the police and BATF to deal with, as well as being labeled a "person of interest" or a terriorist. This is the point where EVERYONE needs to caution each other against the known dangers of certain actions. Individuals need to recognize the wisdom of those who are trying to protect us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 It's not a pipe bomb; if you have it packed tightly and no water in it, it does not have enough energy to do much more than split the casing. We had one "pop" at a Quad-State demo once; no excitement Of course if you allow water inside to create steam of have a lot of gas for expansion *then* you are setting it to have enough energy to do some damage. Glen; over reacting is almost worse than under reacting in my opinion and now you have documented all blacksmiths making pipe damascus as possible terrorists and their work as bombs---thank you *very* much! Thomas Powers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Andy: Just because you did it once and got away with it dosen't make it safe but I suspect that it has reinforced in your mind that this is an acceptable practice. That is human nature, if it don't blow up and kill us the first time it must be ok. Remember that there are Old Blacksmiths and there are Bold Blacksmiths, but there are few if any Old, Bold Blacksmiths. Woody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Thomas, you are correct, as it is NOT a pipe bomb as the term is used in 2006, and I most likely did over react in my estimate of devistation. Thank you for bringing that to our attention. To clear up any confusion I suggest that we call this process "conatiner damascus" in the future.1" pipe filled with iron shavings and some drill filings with the ends capped and welded. A "welded" pipe (assuming a good weld) is a sealed container. As you pointed out water being included in the sealed container will "create steam and have a lot of gas for expansion *then* you are setting it to have enough energy to do some damage." I have not seen any specifics on this process, such as how much moisture can be present in the raw materials, how large a hole to leave in what size pipe for the gasses to escape, the wall thickness of the pipe, tubing, or container, and other important details that I would WANT to know before I started this type project. My point is that sealed containers are unforgiving, whether it is a 55 gallon drum, or pipe with the ends "capped and welded." I would much rather err on the side of caution and warn anyone about dangers than have the first person hurt. Container Damascus Thin wall tubing is much different from schedule 40 or schedule 80 pipe. One question that we need to address is what is the wall thickness of the container that is being used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 When you get the weld finished, do you just flatten it and fold it into a billet, or do you try to get the steel inside to the outside. If you do, how? Do you try to grind it away, or do you split the pipe and fold it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bipolarandy Posted October 20, 2006 Author Share Posted October 20, 2006 Can i just interject inta ya'll little cat fight. #1 I was aware that what I was doing might be dangerous, in fact I was a tad insecure and even asked "is it gonna blow up?" #2 In all the reading i'v done about "conatiner damascus", they allways talk about an air tight seal so you get a neutral atmo inside the can. If Rich Hale and Woody are right, that would mean alot of knife makers are exploding right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 This is really not a cat fight, however never ever trust that something that has been done before is safe. Andy if you back up to one of my earlier posts you will see that I suggested drilling two holes each one sixteenth of an inch in size,,which that makes it a container not a closed container. In thirty years as a first responder in the fire service I simply cannot tell you how many folks that I have spoken with that are severely injured that have said to me,"It never did this before" And indeed I have heard that from the surviving family and friends of the departed. And no I have not seen anyone die or suffer an injury from welding a closed container rupture in a forge. while makeing a welded billet. Based on my experiences what you did is not a safe act and I would never suggest anyone repeat it. About the posts about water vapor..good point,,I do wonder if the shavings were clean or if they had a solvent or lubricant on them..In my shop they are oily. In this wonderful country we can do what and how we wish. This is not a directive for your work..just thoughts,,,be safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Rich the "pop" example at quad state had WD40 squirted into it before welding shut to act as the de-oxidizer. There really wasn't a lot of vapour created when heating and since it was an O2 defficient environment it was not an *explosive* vapour; just a flamable one and in the propane forge a sudden jet of flamable gas is just par for the course. There is not a lot of freespace for gas to occupy and compress when properly done. Can you explain your feeling of danger? Water heated in an enclosed space is a well know danger as well as water into acid, water in contact with molten metal or salt, etc. Water is a *dangerous* substance! The danger in O-A cutting of tanks lies in their collecting unburnt Acetylene in them until it can reach an explosive concentration with air and there being a source of ignition present...very different than making container damascus. (Frankly acetylene scares me---a compound that will exothermically disassociate without needing the pressence of oxygen!) Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 20, 2006 Share Posted October 20, 2006 Andy, is it not a cat fight, far from it. I see it as a discussion on "container damascus" that not only covers the subject, but also discusses how to survive the process. Thomas, Woody, Garey and others are knowledgable people, having been there and done it. Woody, Rich, and others know the safety aspect, and the results of poor judgment. Everyone is encouraged to add their opinion based on facts and or experience. The bottom line is open discussion, and everyone being able to go home with all their body parts in the proper places at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 I've saw 'container' Damascus made at Alan Ball's teaching workshop up in Logan Village after the Muster. Have to say that nothing about the process put my hair on end (not that I have a great deal of hair to stand up anyway) as long as you use a modicum of common sence I wouldn't personally consider it particularly dangerous, certainly no more so than any other activity you may ingage in as a Smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 This does bring up the idea that somethings are a whole lot safer done by folks who know what they are doing than by people just starting out who may not know the danger modes of a new process. On the whole we tend to over emphasize the dangers as we'd hate for another person to get hurt doing what we do all the time. "A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing" Thomas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredlyFX Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 I have enjoyed this discussion imensely. One thing I did notice was that no one answered the questions raised by easillyconfused about the basic steps of this process. "When you get the weld finished, do you just flatten it and fold it into a billet, or do you try to get the steel inside to the outside. If you do, how? Do you try to grind it away, or do you split the pipe and fold it?" I had the same type of questions and more. Do you just pound the pipe flat, or do you try to keep it round? What kind of patterns can you expect? Is it ok to use a thin wall tubing, say .090 or .065 rather than water type pipe? Curious minds are wondering if I should finally sweep up around the ol drill press some day. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.