wow we're spoiled

[newbladesmith]

I have been reading a lot of the old posts about rr spike knives and there is something that has been annoying me. It's the fact that no matter how nicely made one is and how proud the smith is of his/her work there are always people trying to down them for using what they call "inferior" steel. First off the steel in the spikes is better than most kinds of steels that were used for knives throughout history. And secondly they do make decent knives. I think that some people forget that not everybody can offord steel that hardly needs to be sharpened. I have used spike knives that have held their edge for far longer than some proffecionally made knives i have used in the past. I know that to some people paying fifteen to thirty dollars at a scrap yard for spring steel seems trivial, but some of us struggle just to afford fuel for our forges so a discarded rr spike works wounders. I have to raid scrap metal dumpsters and walk the tracks not to mention monater the free section of craigslist just to get steel to support my smithing addiction. So please remember that to some of us a good rr spike knife is just as amazing to make as a fanaminal high carbon blade.

[Rich Hale]

We are glad you enjoy using them and they do wot you wish them to.

[Robert Mayo]

I agree with Rich if that's what you like and can afford use them.
But most of all have fun doing it!
Personaly i expect more from my blades and so do my clients.
Bob

[bigfootnampa]

Here's an idea for you; I have bought lots of small pry bars for a dollar each and some big ones (3 foot X 3/4") for three bucks each. I get them at flea markets or even antique stores. The same markets often have RR spikes and usually around a dollar each. The small pry bars are equivalent steel content to about 4 spikes and will make much better cutting edges (most of them anyway). The large pry bars have more steel than a dozen spikes. Personally I would rather not spend my forge fuel and my own valuable forge time working with the spike steel when I could have much better material to work with. I get lots of old riding mower blades for free or traded for an item made from one of them and that steel is excellent for cutting edges (in nearly all cases). Check with the service manager of a mower dealership. Most of my mower blade stock seems to be about 1080-1090 steel... similar to old file steel. I often get old files for fifty cents to $1.25 each too and at antique stores as well as flea markets.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Another item to look for are large Allen wrenches. I have to reheat treat mine at work sometimes. Red to water quench will get them glass hard, then draw it out to a straw/purple for wrench use. I see big Allens from time to time really cheap, because a lot of folks don't need a 5/8" Allen at home. Look for Good makers/countries.

I fully understand use what you got, or can afford. You are gaining experience, so it is not wasted time. On the other hand O-1 tool steel is relatively cheap when you consider your time, and fuel out scrounging up iffy material. I scrounge in areas that I happen to be at the time, I don't make special trips to do it. If I drive my truck into Vegas I have a couple of spots that I will cruise by. It is a 100-150 mile round trip into Sin City from Da Boonies, so I am looking at say $20-$30 in fuel for the trip. I could buy a lot of great steel for the cost of fuel. Even my Saturn SW2 has picked up some goodies, but not on scrounging trips. It is usually when I am in visiting friends, or attending one of my Meetup.com events.

Look up McMaster Carr online, and price O-1 bars, also check MSC online, they had/have a special on W-1 bars. It is not as expensive as you think. IIRC less than $8 for a 3' length of 1/2" for either one.

[newbladesmith]

please don't get me wrong. i understand that they don't make the best knives and i use better grade when i can. I'm just annoied at the people who condicend to those who also use rr spikes. i use old tools and i occasionally order the really good stuff. but i have to walk two blocks to find buckets of rr spikes that are free for the taking, (yes i cleared it with the owners of the train yard). These make some serviceable blades if not the best and they can be made into some gorgeous pieces. Some of my customers love the look of some of the designs i can make out of them. I do have a great time using these and higher carbon steels. i just want people to stop looking down on and being rude to those who use this lower quality pieces of steel.

[Rich Hale]

I am on this site quite a bit and have been so since it started. I may have missed it but I have not seen anyone being put down for useing spikes for forging anything.If you have a specific post I would like to read it. What I have seen, and it has been fairly often is folks reminding others that for knivss spikes aree a little short on the things that make a good knife. There are some heat treating methods that can get the most out of spike steel, just as the same can be said of any knife steel.

There is a link here somewhere on methods of testing a blade using the ABS testing as a guide. IF we do those or something similiar to test our work we can keep a journal of what works for us and how to repeat it.

BAck to the links I have seen on here: I have seen and maybe have done it myself; when someone asks how well spikes work as knives it is common to see an answer that says..Not good at all. One reason for the short answer in my way of thinking is that most folks have seen that question on here a ton of times and are reluctant to sit here and provide this lengthy of an answer.

And as I said in my earlier post in this thread, I am glad you enjoy forging them and are learning. There is a ton of information on this site about what knife steels should have in them and how to heat treat. I made a few knives from spikes a while back and got the same pleasure from them as I believe you have.

I use different steels now as my needs have changed since then. Enjoy your work is the key.

[JPH]

Hello:
Hope no one minds...

RR SPikes are more of a "novelty" than anythiong else..the steel is what I would call "minimal" as far as knife blades go but still, with the proper hardening they do make an OK kinfe..All I know is I sell them faster than I can make them, and the customer wants what the customer wants so who am I to pass judgement??? When asked how well they cut I simply say it'll take a bit more sharpening but they do cut OK...and they just fly off my table...heck.for $40.00 a person gets a hand made, hand forged knife...

Now I am just plain lil'ol me and no one special but I can't keep them around (which is a good thing)so I get as many as I can whenever I can find them..

I just brine quench and don't even bother with tempering and they cut A-OK the way I HT them..

Just my two cents...

JPH

[j.w.s.]

I agree with JPH, rr spike knives are a novelty.. some people really like them, heck, I've put more time into making them than I probably care to admit. The ones I turn out are normally just an artistic bug biting me which tends to happen when I come across rusted and pitted spikes. There's a story in that old steel that I like to exemplify while giving it a new form. No matter what though I'm only getting a cutting implement that has to conform to the limits of its composition. I understand costs etc, but you're time is also worth something - and you've got to determine where you draw the line in its expenditure and balance that with your material.

[newbladesmith]

i understand all you're points. but as far as my experience says they do hold a decent edge. i made one that held an edge better than most of the 440 stainless knives that i have bought. i know that isn't saying much but still.

[zampilot]

If a knife gets a dull edge sharpen it. Been going on for a long time. If someone likes shiny new high-tech stuff over a RR spike knife, no biggie to me, mount it in your amoire. I use commercially mass produced knives every day and I dont mind having to run them over the stone when they need it, which is everyday. I'd have a lot more pride and satisfaction using a RR knive at home or in the woods than a stamped POS commercial chefs knife.

[ThomasPowers]

I am one of those people who don't like RR spike knives. To me they are strictly novelties and "1 trick ponies". I also generally point out that if you are collecting spikes you could also be collecting the J clips along the same tracks that have 40 to 60 points carbon in them compared to the HC spikes that are spec'd to top out at 30 points.

Can you explain how the free clips are more expensive than the free spikes from the same locations?

I also don't like RR spike knives for the weight of the handle; they are clunky things I would not want to carry around as a using knife. (so poor steel and bad design)

Also automotive springs are generally available free for the asking and generally have double the carbon content of an HC spike.

When I teach bladesmithing I start my students out on automotive coil spring as I want them to learn to work with higher carbon materials and not learn habits they can get away with in low C but will come back to bite them when they try high C. (So poor steel, bad design and engendering bad habits)

When I try to make a knife I generally try to make the best blade I can within my time and money budget. If I can use a better *free* steel then I don't see why I should use a worse one.

*Unless* I am trying to replicate a historical blade that would have been a lower quality steel and then I'm usually in the blister steel and wrought iron or bloomery material realm and for those the time and money budget is generally *MUCH* higher---even than buying top of the line tool steels!

Historically under 30 points generally gets you to early medieval or earlier and even in celtic times higher carbon (or phosphorus) steels were not that uncommon. One aspect of historical knife blades to remember is that the High C part could be a quite small and thin piece forge welded to the edge and that can then be lost through wear and oxidation over the intervening years leaving the "knife" looking like it was all of lower carbon content when it really originally had a High C edge. (sort of like some of the arguments on case hardening of arrowheads).

May I commend to your attention "The Celtic Sword" Radomir Pleiner, "Knives and Scabbards, Museum of London" and "The Metallography of Early Ferrous Edge Tools and Edged Weapons" Tylecote and Gilmour

This is my take on it and why I don *not* encourage new bladesmiths to make RR spike knives. They are of course free to do whatever they want to; but I would hope they would not encourage others to do likewise!

[reefera4m]

A different view on RR Spike knives.

While I don't teach 'bladesmithing' per se, I do teach a little basic forging. It is far easier to learn proper forging technique on 'softer' lower carbon steel than even well annealed high carbon steel. Good techinque on low carbon steel is good technique on all steels. Just as bad technique on low carbon steel is bad technique on high C steel. And good forging/hammering technigue, is, IMHO, one of the true keys to successful bladesmithing. Starting with leaf/coil spring steel (most commonly 5160) is much more challenging. The carbon content (2x+ that of the highest carbon content of HC RR spikes) plus the chromium, makes 5160, even when anneal properly, still very tough to forge. Certainly not what I'd use to teach a beginner forging techniques. I've found in working with beginners that they are much more likely to develop faster if they can see positive results early on. It is darn difficult to achieve early success pounding away on 5160 and not being able to see much progress. I suppose it also depends on the beginner, I been teaching teenagers how to forge (and make some blades). Starting with RR spikes they developed the skill, the strength and best of all, the motivation to continue to harder steels.

One other thought - lower carbon steel like RR Spike steel, can be much more unforgiving that high C steel. While easier to work, it is also easier to overheat, overhammer and generally over work. Like all steels, the more you work it, the more carbon you lose and the more problems you introduce. Rather than creating bad habits, I find that it does just the opposite. I also find that beginners have more time/energy to observe and learn about the various stages of forging, the colors/temperatures, the hammering techniques, etc, that when they spend all of their enery trying desperately to get a piece of 5160 or 1080 just to move.

Having made several knives of 5160, I think it is an excellant choice for blades (I'm not alone by any means - Ed Caffery aka 'The Montana Bladesmith' is a HUGH proponent of 5160. That said, I still think you should learn to crawl first, walk second, run third and if possible, eventually FLY.

And sometimes, just for the fun and novelty, I like to make RR spike knives. They're great to try out new design ideas, styles, shapes and geometries.

[ThomasPowers]

"Good technique on low carbon steel is good technique on all steels"

I do not believe that this is true! Proper working temperature for a mild steel can be above burning or "cottage cheese" temperature of many a high carbon/high alloy steel.

Learning to work a steel with in the proper temperature range is a major part of "good technique". Treating high carbon steel like it is mild steel is not a good thing---I was at a SOFA demo once where the ornamental smith forged a High-C punch---working it like mild steel---too hot/cold for the alloy. Had me gritting my teeth and when he passed it around I pointed out that it had a large crack in it---He said that it would do for the demo; but on the second strike it broke in two.

Now things like hammer control can be learned on mild steel; Perhaps the issue is that I don't start my students on blademaking; they have to go through several ornamental projects first to help gain control of the basics of forging and let me know those who I am willing to train in bladesmithing---(do they listen and follow instructions? are they safe around others and themselves? do they have the basic skills down so that they will not mess up a blade because they don't know how to hammer?) But once they start blademaking all their blades are made from a decent knifemaking alloy and I expect them to mess up the first attempt just from trying to work it like it is a mild steel piece---I warn them 3 times and then let them burn it up or crack it and then we flip the extra long piece of stock around and start over. They generally pay much more attention the second go round and if I warn them they pay attention!

[Dodge]

At the risk of beating a horse to death, (Sorry Rich ) I'm by know means, a bladesmith. I have finished one knife; a pattern welded blade, welded up another pattern welded billet and have a blade made from 5160 steel that some day may become a finished knife in the 10 or so years I've been playing with a forge. I have collected several hundred pounds of leaf spring with the fantasy of making more knives but I have too many other interests in blacksmithing and metal work as well as other interests that I will never be able to use all of it. The point I'm driving at is: The dollar price tag on all of that material was $0.00. I made no "special" trips for it as I was already at the location the materials were, and they were free for the taking. I won't go into all the sordid details of why I was in the right place at the right time (no I didn't steal anything) And I know not everyone has the resources that I have had, but they are out there. It should only take a little time on the phone and/or maybe a little gas in the car or truck. Spring shops, truck and trailer accessorizers throw springs away. The billet and knife I finished were made from pallet banding and industrial bandsaw blade; free (where I was at, at the time). I know a lot of people go to scrap yards and buy scrap for their projects but the fact is, in my area, there are little to no scrap yard here that resell scrap. It all is contacted to the mills, so we have to scrounge here or buy new. Since the OP topic was about costs, if you want it for little to no money, you have to be willing to hunt and ask questions. Improvise, adapt and overcome!! (Where's a thumbs-up emoticon when you need one )