Inhaling Coal smoke

[ledson]

I have finished building my forge and smoke hood for it, fired it up for the first time and the hood didn't do what it suppose to do, smoke poured out of it everywhere but up the flue pipe. Needless to say I kept it burning for half an hour or so to experiment as this was my first time and I was having too much fun to stop. I left feeling pretty sick and I've been that way since for (72 hours) I have flu like symptoms, cold chills to burning up and one hell of a lower aching back, headaches and a cough. I've had a bit of a cold beforehand but it's a mystery to me if the coal fumes did me in or it was something that was just going to happen?

btw, the shop had no door or windows installed at this point so the smoke wasn’t confined in the shop. I will say I will never do that again and will redesign my hood before firing it back up.

Could someone shed some light on this topic while I lay here and suffer some more?
Thanks

[Sam Thompson]

The flue pipe needs to be of sufficient diameter and height to suck the smoke away. It will work better as it warms but it sounds like yours doesn't work at all. A cowl on the top may help to prevent down-draughts, as will fitting doors and windows to control any gusts of wind.
If you make alterations, use paper or sticks to test the suction before risking something as noxious as coke. Good luck.

[John B]

Not much to go on there, telepathy would be great, description, dimensions, and pictures would help to try and establish what may be wrong, or right.

[ledson]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The question is about me inhaling all that coal smoke and not knowing how bad and what kind of damage it could do to a guy in that period of time I was in there. I have no idea if I am sick right now from it or not. I reread my current post and could see the confusion, again sorry. My main concern was the affects of coal fumes and not why my hood didn't work, but I do appreciate the response on it.

[Frank Turley]

I went through your symptoms about two weeks ago, and I've been using coal forges for 47 years. I think it's the flu plus a cold. On the other hand, breathing lots of coal smoke cannot be good for a person. Shop dust is just as bad, or worse.

Large overhead hoods without sides are not good for removing smoke, ESPECIALLY if there are breezes going through the shop, even slight ones. I've found tha best hoods are sheet metal and are enclosed except for an air opening on the side facing the fire. I'm right handed, so the hood sits on the hearth to the left of the fire, the opening about flush with the left edge of the fire pot. You want a minimum of an 8" stovepipe flue; 10 inches would be OK.

http://www.turleyforge.com Granddaddy of Blacksmith schools

[Sam Falzone]

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. The question is about me inhaling all that coal smoke and not knowing how bad and what kind of damage it could do to a guy in that period of time I was in there. I have no idea if I am sick right now from it or not. I reread my current post and could see the confusion, again sorry. My main concern was the affects of coal fumes and not why my hood didn't work, but I do appreciate the response on it.

Aside from the cold you already had, sounds like you might be suffering from some smoke inhalation as well.
If it's already been 72 hours, you might want to consider consulting your doctor - severe smoke inhalation can lead to other complications.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong. Hope you get better.

sam

[Rob Browne]

There are some really noxious chemicals in coal smoke, that is why we try to get it out of the shop so well. The odd breath will not do any harm but if you were in a room full of the stuff for half an hour then it will be causing you problems.

Best advice is not to breath it and test your flue setup with a small wood fire next time then, if it is OK, use the wood fire to get your coal burning.

Good luck and keep safe.

[Dave Hammer]

Sounds like you have been given some good advice about your symptoms.

I realize you didn't ask for fire info, but better forge and fire management will minimize the smoke in the future. This advice is for your forge and fire....

It's not clear how your forge is designed to handle smoke (other than the obvious, up the flue), but I've had best luck with sidedraft setups to take the smoke from the fire. It also helps to get the smoke started in the right direction if you wad up a newspaper light it and put it in the sidedraft opening. This will provide rising heat and associated immediate updraft to start the smoke going up the chiminey....

Good luck with your personal symptoms.

[ledson]

Thank you all!

Yeah I got to see a doctor then because I never been sick like before. When I feel better I will take detail pictures of my forge and hood so you can see what I have going on. I really do appreciate the help on the hood, it's something that needs to be addressed sometime anyway, it's just the least of my worry's at this point but I'm happy to hear your idea's the same time.

[Alec.S]

I had exactly the same thing the other day.........If you get it again i advise drinking lots of water and have lots of sugar because your blood sugar will be low...

[Arpspasm]

I have finished building my forge and smoke hood for it, fired it up for the first time and the hood didn't do what it suppose to do, smoke poured out of it everywhere but up the flue pipe. Needless to say I kept it burning for half an hour or so to experiment as this was my first time and I was having too much fun to stop. I left feeling pretty sick and I've been that way since for (72 hours) I have flu like symptoms, cold chills to burning up and one hell of a lower aching back, headaches and a cough. I've had a bit of a cold beforehand but it's a mystery to me if the coal fumes did me in or it was something that was just going to happen?

btw, the shop had no door or windows installed at this point so the smoke wasn’t confined in the shop. I will say I will never do that again and will redesign my hood before firing it back up.

Could someone shed some light on this topic while I lay here and suffer some more?
Thanks

This may be a stupid question but did you use any galvanised steel in the construction of you firepot e.t.c.? I am only asking as burning zinc can be quite hazardous to your health.

[MattBower]

It's not smart to breathe smoke, period, and coal smoke is worse than many. It contains sulfur dioxide, which combines with water (as in your lungs) to make sulfurous acid. Heavy metals. Particulate junk. Probably some carbon monoxide. Hanging out in a cloud of the stuff for an extended period of time isn't a great idea. Could be that you just coincidentally have a case of the flu, or it could be that something in the smoke is causing your problems. I'd get it checked out either way. And be careful next time.

[Edited for scientific accuracy.]

Edited April 19, 2010 by MattBower

[lawndartcatcher]

One of the most significant presentations of carbon monoxide inhalation is "flu-like symptoms"; these often last 24-72 hours after the initial exposure since carbon monoxide binds both with the hemoglobin in your blood (which is what kills ya) as well as specific areas of muscle tissue. The CO in the muscle tissue isn't released until well after the initial exposure, so you are in essence being poisoned twice. So in addition to the other nasty stuff that's already been discussed it sounds like there may have been some CO poisoning going on.

[ThomasPowers]

Coal smoke gives me killer sinus issues and so I try to avoid it enough not to get into other issues. I tend to worry more about propane exhaust as it doesn't hit you over the head with the warning that IT ISN'T GOOD TO BREATHE like caol smoke does.

A proper vent system is mandatory with any forge in my opinion.

[Pat Roy]

I'm not a doctor, never played one on TV and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I did poison myself with carbon monoxide from a charcoal grill once that I put in the garage to stay out of the rain while cooking. Big mistake; I was sick for days. CO molecules will stick to your red blood cells with great tenacity thereby making it difficult for oxygen molecules to do the same. No amount of water, milk, sugar, or other home remedies will fix this. In severe cases you see the firemen wearing oxygen masks as they are taken to the hospital. I would see a doctor soon. Additionally, there are a lot of nasties in coal smoke, especially the sulfur compounds mixing with body fluids on mucus membranes(mouth, nose, throat, lungs) and forming things like sulfuric acid.

One other(or more) poster suggested lighting a sheet of newspaper in the flue to get the draft going, good idea. Once you have been using the forge for a while you will be leaving yourself every day with some coke to start the next fire. That is less smoky than starting with green coal. I have an 8 inch flue with a cap and a fairly open side hood; works pretty good for me. 10 inch would be better, but that is more expensive.

Be careful, take care of yourself and when you can, enjoy the shop.

[Dragons lair]

No matter what fuel ya use spend the bucks for a good CO meter. If ya got gas get the one that reads both
CO and propane. About $50.
Ken.

[ledson]

A lot of great information here and kind words! Thank you, thank you, thank you

My conditions took a turn for the worst last night with my cough. My cough up till then was pretty controllable but last night it became out of control, I couldn't get any sleep so by 4am I got in my car and went into out patience. They did the regular tests and decided to keep me in till 7am for x-rays. The x-rays showed infection on the long side of my right lung, the doctor on duty still couldn't diagnose what I had going on such as the flu or not. He said I was an interesting guy sorta speak. He prescribed me an antibiotic plus a puffer, he hopes it will help and if not by next week for me to see my family doctor.

Reading the info from you guys and my systems are what they are, leads me to believe it's not the flu. I'm actually worried now about the sulfurous acid and CO poisoning as stated earlier. If that's the case, is there a cure? Will I continue to get worst before getting better?

[ledson]

This may be a stupid question but did you use any galvanised steel in the construction of you firepot e.t.c.? I am only asking as burning zinc can be quite hazardous to your health.

No metal fume fever going on with me, no galvanized fumes in the smoke I ingested but great point

[keithgartner]

I have had the symptoms you talk about, I guess I can say they will go away, mine did, after a week. The way I, see it is , coal smoke is unlike charcoal smoke, as charcoal smoke (fumes) are acrid and offensive, and cause an immediate reaction, and you leave. Coal smoke (fumes) are more laid back and you don't feel the need to get out, it kinda, sucks you in, ( it doesn't feel bad so I'll stay). Wrong, get out, sulfer dioxide is the only chemical I can think of at this moment, but it is one of the many contained in coal smoke, that are toxic. Please see all above responses, to rectify your venting issues, and enjoy years if blacksmithing.
Keith

[pkrankow]

CO poisoning will work itself out AS LONG AS YOU AVOID EXPOSURE for a time, days or weeks. Sulfuric acid and other acidic damage to your lungs will resolve as well, AS LONG AS YOU AVOID EXPOSURE but could have set up a nice place for a secondary infection. Particulate is tough, some can be eliminated by the body, some gets coughed up, and some will stay with you forever.

Since you are still with us the CO and sulfur exposures are not going to kill you this time. Other things you could expose yourself to CAN kill you several days after you start to feel a little better! (look up metal fume fever, and read about Paw Paw Wilson)


http://www.anvilfire.com/iForge/tutor/safety3/index.htm

I think you are done forging for April (at least a few weeks), but when you start feeling better you should get your chimney and hood fixed before lighting another fire.

Get healthy and stay safe.
Phil

[ThomasPowers]

Sounds like pneumonia to me an perhaps only slightly related to your forging but perhaps more related to your previous flu symptoms.

Keep on it! I once missed an entire month of work one summer do to pneumonia; most unpleasant! (and they started a massive cleanup campaign where I worked after I told the company Dr that one of my Drs was wondering about Legionella. The company told me there was no evidence of it at work and then started closing down and redoing sinks, water fountains, humidity controllers, bathrooms etc due to legionella...)

[ledson]

I'm feeling better now so I went out to my fathers old farm and took a few pictures of my newly built/work in progress smithy we built out of rough lumber, all the materials in it was stuff laying around. That's why I used the size pipe for the flue in which I will tell you the dimensions now.

There was a 6in flange laying around so I used that for the hole on top of the barrel hood because we had a reducer that went from 7in to 6in, so I used the reducer first to hook to the flange in the barrel, then it went from that to all 7in pipe. So in short I have a 6 inch hole in the barrel to a 7in pipe. (1st mistake I know) but it was all free stuff and I had hoped it would work. Other then that the pictures are self explanatory I think.

Even though the hole in the hood is 6 inches; I think it's likely to far away from the fire too. What do you guys think? is there any saving what I got by doing a modifications or do I have to rip it out, dig my wallet out and start fresh?

[Dodge]

Glad to hear your feeling better! I'm no expert and I run a gasser, but based on what I've learned about fire places, from the photos I suspect that the biggest issue is the shape of you hood. I believe it should have some sort of taper. The straight then flat surfaces of the drum can't create a vortex (like an up-side-down tornado) to start the draw of smoke. Then the next thing might be the height of your chimney. It seem a little short to me. I'm sure others will chime in that are more knowledgeable than I, but that's my humble opinion for what its worth. BTW, nice anvil!!!

Scott

[MattBower]

I'm no chimney guru, but here's an article that you may find useful: http://www.beautifuliron.com/chimneys.htm

[ironstein]

I could be wrong, but after looking at your pictures it looks like all the metal around your forge is galvanized. Including our ash dump. Other than the barrel and flue, it looks like the pan and stand around your fire pot are galvanized. These could heat up enough to let off the poisonous zinc that may have made you sick. Again i could be wrong. If the metal surrounding your forge is galvanized, i would remove it and start fresh with some steel sheet.