Where does the line start to Blur?

[KYBOY]

What do you think? Where does Blacksmithing end and fabrication begin? Im not talking about using power hammers either. If there is such a line, for example. If you make a knife or a tool and a great deal of the work is done on a milling machine or a lath instead of being done with files or the hammer. Lets say 50/50 machine, hammer work. Do you consider this "hand forged"? Not trying to start an argument or anything but myself and several other guys have been discussing this lately. Whats you alls take? When does it stop being blacksmithing or does it ever it if was brought to heat in a forge at all?

[Ed Steinkirchner]

i consider i fabrication if it is done cold, bending, welding, or anything that doesn't change the cross section of the metal, and that includes milling and other machining operations. but in an object like a knife it depends on the desired final product. like in a pattern welded blade stock removal will make the pattern much different that if it was forged then ground smooth. but a monosteel blade will look pretty much the same either way. but i comment from the standpoint that if it IS forged when someone sees it they should instantly know its forged. what i mean is that a forged object should not look like a fabricated object.

[Dragons lair]

My 2 cents, As the owner of a welding/fab/CNC cutting/blacksmiths shop I use a 70/30 rule. If it takes less than 70%
of the time heating and hammering I won't call it hand forged.
Ken

[KYBOY]

My 2 cents, As the owner of a welding/fab/CNC cutting/blacksmiths shop I use a 70/30 rule. If it takes less than 70%
of the time heating and hammering I won't call it hand forged.
Ken

That makes good sense. Ive been a welder/fab man a long time myself so I see where your coming from.

[John B]

but i comment from the standpoint that if it IS forged when someone sees it they should instantly know its forged. what i mean is that a forged object should not look like a fabricated object.

On the other hand I have seen learned, experienced 'smiths arguing with the maker that a forged figurine was actually a casting, or items were made in a different way to what the maker had said, and it took some time to convince them othwerwise, and even then they were sometimes not convinced.

It is difficult to define a line, but forged implies being made using a heat source.

The 70/30 rule is as good as any, but ultimately it comes down to what the maker is prepared to be honestly satisfied with when putting a label on the finished item

This is a question that will never be definitively answered, all have their own idea of what fabrication is.

Traditionally in the early days of ironworking, prefabricating parts and assembling was an accepted method of construction, nowadays fabrication is perceived somewhat differently

Long may the debate continue,

[dablacksmith]

it is something that each person must decide .. its your concence! ive seen fabbed and painted aluminum called "forged" and sold as such ... to me if you can see where it was hammered in the finished product then its forged... in fact it is how i set my knives apart ! i figure if my knife could be made by stock removal then there is no reason for anyone to purchace it over a stock removal knife.. as far as product ive got a few items that ar fabbed .. if it makes sence to make them that way then i will.but 99% of my items are forged and a lot of the time i will look for a way to forge a item over fabbing one . If a item is better fabbed and another person makes a good one i will find something else to make (i never run out of items to make). sometimes it takes stretching your skills to find a way to make a item ..it is uultimately up to the indivigual to determine the ammount of fabrication they are comfortable with !

[JeremyP]

In my opinion, fabrication is any finished piece thats been assembled from 2 or more components.
Welded, is a finished component that was exclusivly welded together after cutting the material to its desired dimensions.
Forging is a finished component which has been heated and shaped to its finished form via hammering, bending, slotting etc
Machining is a finished component which has been ground or cut to its final shape via stock removal or mechanical cutting.

An entrance gate using all forged components is in my opinion a forged fabrication.

An entrance gate using welded components is in my opinion a welded fabrication.

[monstermetal]

I have participated in some form of this discussion with many people and It always surprises me what strong feelings it can provoke. To me its real clear and its about intent. If you are using a term to describe the item, how it was made, or a style (such as "hand forged") and the item was at some time in fact "hand forged" then in my eyes percentages or rules are more just to make the person selling it feel better. If you are using a label to add value (IE: a welded together bent shelf bracket being sold as "Wrought Iron", which is technically accurate but not really) then its an unacceptable label... The purchaser is buying based on what they see, feel, experience and to a lesser degree the label placed upon it.. I bet a Traditional blacksmith (a real one, from 200 years ago. Not someone trying to act "Traditional") would argue that he would use any means necessary and available. The goal in any endeavor which is to be sold is to archive the end result desired with the most economical means possible. "Economical" means using a powerhammer when practical and it also means using powertools to do jobs that would not be economical to do by "hand" Notice the "which is to be sold" if you are a hobby smith who sells items and the goal is to be a hobby smith and make enough money to afford your craft.. you dont fit in the true economic model. There are also other exceptions where the method IS the goal and am not refuting those as valid reasons for proses.
In my eyes any "hand made" part is in fact a hand made part if it truly unique and made solely with the input and skill of the human mind and hand.... So a part is no less hand made on a manual milling machine than with a file... No less hand made with a welding machine than with a rivet... Does that mean I dont see value in "traditional" blacksmithing and joinery ? not at all... I think a pierced, upset and riveted item is one of the most beautiful things a man (or woman) can make... But I would be no less impressed with the beauty if i found out it was finished with a pneumatic DA sander and and the holes punched with a hydraulic press. I am always impressed with smiths who have enough experience and skill to do things "the hard way" but I am no less impressed with smiths who have used technology and intellect to "forge" ahead....

So the short and sweet answer is... If you feel good about calling it something... no reservations.... Then call it that.. If you have second thoughts or questions about a label... then I would rethink

I also would like to point out "fabricate" is not a dirty word...

fab⋅ri⋅cate
  /ˈfæbrɪˌkeɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fab-ri-keyt] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -cat⋅ed, -cat⋅ing.
1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.

So really unless the "Hand forged" thing you made is a single part... say an S hook.... It is Fabricated by nature... of individual hand forged parts...

What I take from all of this (not just this thread, but the many many times this has come up) is that its more about the maker and less about the item... My feeling is many smiths want recognition for how much work and effort they expended, they put there heart and sole into this "thing" Its only natural to be defensive and protective of it....

I am also a bicycle builder and believe it or not the same argument takes place on the bicycle forums... There are builders who believe that if a power tube notcher or a milling machine was used its not a "hand made" bicycle... That you must use a file and braze the tubes... not TIG weld.... The guy who runs one of the forums has actually kicked people off for not being "traditional" enough (using power tools) My feeling is someone outside the blacksmithing community would find this discussion just as silly and most of you would find the bicycle argument

I know there are strong enough feelings on this topic that I am likely to offed someone with statements like these.... But really what it comes down to is personal accountability and belief. Stay true to your heart and what ever you call it will be fine, if someone argues with you about the label consider there view but stay true to yourself

[tzonoqua]

What Monstermetal said!!!

[KYBOY]

I have seen the opinions run the gamut from "if one person made it in their shop, its hand forged" all the way too "If a power tool touched it, its not hand forged"..You run into this a lot when making items for the historical community. One poster already mentioned this. Re-enactors can be espically strict about forging methods. Ive found this out first hand example:
Me: yes, I have some hand forged hawks.
Re-enactor: Hand forged? whats your method?
Me: hand hammer, wrapped and welded or slit and drifted, fullered, fileowrk and then finish it off with some grinder clean up..
Re-enactor: Sorry, cant use it..
Me: Why? if you dont mind saying?
Re-enactor: You used a grinder instead of stones or files

[Larry H]

I agree with Monstermetal, Even though I like to try to make things from one piece or forge weld, don't forget a blacksmith invented vise grips ,(Peterson), and I'm sure the drill press. Blacksmiths had (have) to make a living. The shortest way to complete the job well was the way to go, ( as long as it lasted "forever") But then again, maybe the guy who invented the welding machine could not forge weld.
A few years ago I fabricated 100' of every picket hand forged fence
with seven gates. No welding, mortise and tenon, bands, rivets or forge welding only. what a pain. He complained it was taking to long until
he thought about it, each piece by hand. He called me for another job.

[HWHII]

I have participated in some form of this discussion with many people and It always surprises me what strong feelings it can provoke. To me its real clear and its about intent. If you are using a term to describe the item, how it was made, or a style (such as "hand forged") and the item was at some time in fact "hand forged" then in my eyes percentages or rules are more just to make the person selling it feel better. If you are using a label to add value (IE: a welded together bent shelf bracket being sold as "Wrought Iron", which is technically accurate but not really) then its an unacceptable label... The purchaser is buying based on what they see, feel, experience and to a lesser degree the label placed upon it.. I bet a Traditional blacksmith (a real one, from 200 years ago. Not someone trying to act "Traditional") would argue that he would use any means necessary and available. The goal in any endeavor which is to be sold is to archive the end result desired with the most economical means possible. "Economical" means using a powerhammer when practical and it also means using powertools to do jobs that would not be economical to do by "hand" Notice the "which is to be sold" if you are a hobby smith who sells items and the goal is to be a hobby smith and make enough money to afford your craft.. you dont fit in the true economic model. There are also other exceptions where the method IS the goal and am not refuting those as valid reasons for proses.
In my eyes any "hand made" part is in fact a hand made part if it truly unique and made solely with the input and skill of the human mind and hand.... So a part is no less hand made on a manual milling machine than with a file... No less hand made with a welding machine than with a rivet... Does that mean I dont see value in "traditional" blacksmithing and joinery ? not at all... I think a pierced, upset and riveted item is one of the most beautiful things a man (or woman) can make... But I would be no less impressed with the beauty if i found out it was finished with a pneumatic DA sander and and the holes punched with a hydraulic press. I am always impressed with smiths who have enough experience and skill to do things "the hard way" but I am no less impressed with smiths who have used technology and intellect to "forge" ahead....

So the short and sweet answer is... If you feel good about calling it something... no reservations.... Then call it that.. If you have second thoughts or questions about a label... then I would rethink

I also would like to point out "fabricate" is not a dirty word...

fab⋅ri⋅cate
  /ˈfæbrɪˌkeɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [fab-ri-keyt] Show IPA
–verb (used with object), -cat⋅ed, -cat⋅ing.
1. to make by art or skill and labor; construct: The finest craftspeople fabricated this clock.
2. to make by assembling parts or sections.

So really unless the "Hand forged" thing you made is a single part... say an S hook.... It is Fabricated by nature... of individual hand forged parts...

What I take from all of this (not just this thread, but the many many times this has come up) is that its more about the maker and less about the item... My feeling is many smiths want recognition for how much work and effort they expended, they put there heart and sole into this "thing" Its only natural to be defensive and protective of it....

I am also a bicycle builder and believe it or not the same argument takes place on the bicycle forums... There are builders who believe that if a power tube notcher or a milling machine was used its not a "hand made" bicycle... That you must use a file and braze the tubes... not TIG weld.... The guy who runs one of the forums has actually kicked people off for not being "traditional" enough (using power tools) My feeling is someone outside the blacksmithing community would find this discussion just as silly and most of you would find the bicycle argument

I know there are strong enough feelings on this topic that I am likely to offed someone with statements like these.... But really what it comes down to is personal accountability and belief. Stay true to your heart and what ever you call it will be fine, if someone argues with you about the label consider there view but stay true to yourself

[ornametalsmith]

It is difficult to define a line, but forged implies being made using a heat source.
Long may the debate continue,

Cold forging?..........still forging, IMO.

[HWHII]

Sorry I ment to tag this on MonsterMetals thread. I could not agree with him more and he probably did a better job explaining how I feel on the subject. I try to incorporate as much hand forged pieces into my work as the project will allow. I really love the term Modern Blacksmith. It somes it up well. I think a hand forged item of the period is a fabricated part for the time when it was created.

[John B]

Cold forging?..........still forging, IMO.

And I respect your opinion,

Even cold forging generates heat, and as I said forging implies the use of heat, its like a new thread , when does cold forging become panelbeating

Yep, I can definitely see the long may it continue coming into being here.

I think I'll choose to opt out now, Thank you very much.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

First time I've seen this discussion.........in a few days anyway. I "make" things. Out of metal. My background is blacksmithing so my preferred method is often forging, but I'll do WHATEVER it takes to do the job. Most people are surprised to learn Sam Yellin never called himself a "blacksmith", his card said simply "Samuel Yellin, Metal Worker", I believe it reflected his attitude. "Wrought" means worked. All my stuff is wrought!

[thecelticforge]

I am of the mind that if electricity is used. That would mean fabrication. Even for air in the fire. I was a smith at a living history museum circa 1830 for 3 years and didn't have the stuff. I think this would be a good defining line. Now as blacksmiths, we need to redefine our selves as blackfabrasmiths. I know I am NOT giving up my electric fan!

Be well, and do good work...
Wind

[Larzz]

Let me see, blacksmithing ends when it gets out of my smithy. Fabrication is what I do to change the form from plate, rod, or bar into something else. Some fabrication is done on the anvil, some on the leg vise, some with hand tools.

My grandfather was a blacksmith up in the Dakota's and was very proud when he was able to install a shaper, run by the line shaft, back in the twenties. The line shaft was run by a 50 hp electric motor that also ran the little giant, drill press ect. He definitely considered himself a blacksmith first and foremost. Now the boys all became machinists with their mills, and lathes and they did not forge anymore. They did not consider them selves blacksmiths but were machinists or tool and die makers.

So I think question is more of a "when is it hand made vs machine made". As indicated above some people consider the use of any electric motor to take it out of the hand made category. I wonder what they would say about the use of water-power?

Personally, I would say the if I control the machine by hand it is hand made. If it is automatically made them it would be machine made. If I used the forge in the process then it is made by blacksmithing.

Also as indicated above if the client wants a specific type of process then I would do it that way and charge accordingly. As Kyboy indicated, if they ask what the exact process I used was, I would tell them. If they didn't like the use of a power grinder. I would suggest that I could make one using the foot powered grinder or just a file. Of course the charge would be adjusted accordingly.

Anyways I am rambling along on a subject that will generate many different opinions. All of them being right for the person making them.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

My entire shop is water-powered! The crick is too far away, so I let the power company run it and hook me to it with a couple of wires.

[Frosty]

My entire shop is water-powered! The crick is too far away, so I let the power company run it and hook me to it with a couple of wires.

Dat's a BIG crick Grant!

Most of my points have been covered one way or another. Forged to me is forcefully changing the cross section of the subject metal and I don't care if it's hot cold, hand powered, leg powered or machine powered.

Hand made? you betcha if a human hand directly controls the process be it on the feed wheel of a lathe or mill or the tongs and hammer handle or whatever, it's HAND MADE. Occasionally when I get an argument on this point I'll heat a piece of steel and ask the argumentative one if they REALLY want to hand form it, no, no, NO tools other than their hands. Never had a taker and probably wouldn't actually let one lay a hand on hot steel. . . Still, it's ended the argument.

The argument about a forged vs. cast figurine. That's an easy argument to have, if it was closed die forged it may well have lines that look just like parting lines from a mold. Heck, I've been on the mistaken side of THAT discussion more than once.

Fab work is about making things from many pieces. As I recall a 5th generation blacksmith name of Miller invented the "ark" (his spelling on the product) welder because he was losing too much money on failed forge welds on "made up" pieces. "made up or a make up piece" is an old timey way of saying "fabricated." I don't think Mr. Miller or Mr. Hobart the inventor of the oxy propane torch, wouldn't consider that aspect of their career anything but blacksmithing though Mr. Hobart did change trades. Anyway, it's a non-issue for me and I can explain how it works to prospective customers, no problem.

This is what counts for me. I will NOT misrepresent my work. If someone asks me to build a 9,000lb car trailer I'm certainly NOT going to tell em I forged it! I FAB what needs fabbing. I forge what needs forging. Even though I truly enjoy fire and hammers, it's NOT my end all and be all. Heck, I used to wear the fabricator's hat when I was drilling and the "MANAGER" types in the front office used to give me xxxx about blacksmithing.

Funny thing about that. A broken track tensioner on the drill rig carrier some 36 miles from the end of the ROAD had them all jittery about helicoptering the parts and mechanics in to repair it. The other two guys on the crew hit the trail to the road and then to town to make phone calls and coordinate the operation. I stayed with the drill, built a fire, hacksawed and chiseled off a section of the deck frame then heated and beat it into a splint to keep the track from walking off the boggies when in motion. Early the next morning I walked the drill to the spot we unloaded it from the lowboy and was sitting there when the guys returned. They stopped when they saw all the crushed trees and brush pointing the wrong way on the trail. When they stopped I fired up the engine on the drill carrier. Oh the LOOKS on their faces!

I'm not sure but I THINK I saved the operation in excess of $30K doing what a blacksmith does. Within a couple weeks of finishing the job and returning to Anch I discovered i was being bragged about. We were the ONLY drilling outfit with a resident blacksmith/fabricator onboard.

Anyway, that's my feeling and what I explain when necessary. It isn't who I am, it's what I do. If I'm fabricating I'm fabricating, modern or ancient methods notwithstanding. If I'm forging, I'm forging. If a customer wants something done a certain way I don't mind, that's why I charge by my shop rate. I haven't refigured shop rate yet but figure it'll be in the $75/hr range. And NO I do NOT have a "studio!" It's a SHOP what comes out of it is the straight poop, no misrepresentations coming out of MY shop. If you want hand forged the way it was done 3.000 years ago you'd better be ready to pay shop rate PLUS wages for helpers. If you don't care I'll twist pickets in 20' lengths with my lathe, I just won't tell you they're all hand forged.

What the hey guys, someone else said it already and far better than I did. You're NOT surprised I hope!

Frosty the Lucky.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

All that from a tree surgeon! Well, the more I think about it, the less I wanna think about it. I just make stuff, this stuff, that stuff, any stuff I wanna make, any way I wanna make it. I ain't gonna draw no dang lines. I'll leave that to the philosophers. In the mean time I'll be making stuff, it's what I enjoy, it's who I am. 'Nfact I think I'll go make some stuff.........

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

I liked that, Frosty and Grant!

[Bryce Masuk]

I liked that, Frosty and Grant!

The more skills you have the better, fabrication can be used for anything

there are stone fabricator's

you can fabricate tales of grandure,

my friend who taught me some tricks in sheet metal came from romania they call everyone "metal fabricators"

at least back when he was there in the communist days

they taught him how to smith, machine, weld, sheetmetal, everything

they used to polish large airplane props made from aluminum BY HAND with a sander

all the gutters at the time were made only 1 meter long basicly they were half a 5 inch circle with a 1 inch break to 90 on both sides.

they were all soldered at the joints and riveted.


another important skill constantly over looked is being able to survey judge and MEASURE a site for building and installation and then make it all come together in reality.

if you cant do that properly all your other skills are somewhat of a moot point unless your always working under someone or never installing it.

essentially you need to be a complete tradesman, it takes a great amount of time and experiance to have all the skills

this is why you can see people who are young 20 years or less that are amazingly talented artists, guitar players, athletes, and many other things but its a single purpose skill some of them are as good as the people with more years of experiance,

but in blacksmithing and metalwork in general I have never seen anyone that can rival the old hands except in one skill like welding or forging but to become the complete package is life time journey,

impatience is a killer I often screw things but because I am overly excited or working too hard too fast, then humility kicks you in the teeth

[John B]

Cold forging?..........still forging, IMO.

Forging, also links to counterfeit (or something made to replicate an original)

Cold forging ? Hmmm ?

Darn, got sucked in again !

[Mainely,Bob]

Back when my father was alive and trying to lure me to Maine and away from the money in the New York area he sent me a want add for a yacht yard.Looking at that add it was apparent that what they wanted was one man to do the work of seven men.(must be proficient in fabrication,pipe fitting,vent work,polishing,welding,etc).Mainly to get my dad off my back I applied and surprisingly was called for an interview which led to getting the job.

Long story short,one of the best compliments I ever received was to have the job title "Metal Man" assigned to me.I asked the yard manager why whenever he wanted to direct a customer to me he pointed down the dock to the plate shop and told them "Go in that building and ask for the metal man" as we had many workers that did things like welding,mechanics,ship fitting,pipe work,etc.
He told me while they had many subcontractors and temp hires that worked a particular area of metal working I was the only one they felt they could count on to be able to do it all.He and the owner had decided that the best description they could come up with for me was"Metal Man" because if it had to do with metal,I was the one to talk to.What surprised me was that all the other workers in the yard knew what it meant and always pointed toward me.That was high praise as far as I was concerned.

I never considered myself anything particularly special,I just knew I loved working with metal in any form.
I never stopped learning or doubted my skill set or ability to find answers thru research and practice.I picked the subcontractor`s brains as much as they did mine.
I never worried about lines,where they might be or if I crossed them.I looked at a job, figured how to effectively do it,gathered my tools and went to work.

The only time in my life that real lines were either drawn or worried over were during the times I worked as a member of a union.I can tell you that even though I feel in some aspects unions are a good and needed thing they have never been anything but a hindrance to me on a personal level.

I say leave the lines and negotiations to the shop stewards and union bosses.Get down on the deck plates and get to the job at hand.Let the customer sort it out when he tells his friends what a fine job you did and sends them back your way.
Lines are something that just lead to limits,I don`t see a need to limit myself or anyone else.