Making pliers

[JNewman]

I have a customer that I have made tongs for in the past who wants me to make him some pliers that Crescent tools used to make but has stopped making. They are called Gas and burner pliers. I have told him that he will be paying way more than he was paying for the factory made ones but he is still interested.

Has anyone made pliers? Any tips? I am thinking of forging the blanks including the teeth. Drilling the rivet hole then plunging an end mill in to make the hinge. The outside round of the hinge seems the only tricky part. I will have to grind and file this to match the hole. The volume on these is not huge about 10 pair /year but it should be enough to warrant doing them. I am thinking 4140 quench and tempered or would I be better with somethng a little harder?

[dablacksmith]

i have made pliers but i use mild steel .. mostly sold small ones to reinactors for working on guns and such... if i was going to use another steel i would use 5160 spring steel . easy to harden and temper and a bit tougher than 4140 .if its going to be a recuring order you might make a simple die for the jaws ....good luck!

[Alec.S]

.....the complete modern blacksmith by alexander g weygor???? lots about making pliers...hope this helps...



alec :)

[Bentiron1946]

If you were of a mind to you could just buy these and doctor them up but that wouldn't be nice http://cgi.ebay.com/Crescent-gas-and-burner-pliers_W0QQitemZ320451787615QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9c6a3b5f or these http://cgi.ebay.com/Vaughan-Bushnell-Gas-and-Burner-Pliers-Wrench-Tool_W0QQitemZ360232477405QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53df8762dd

[Dick L.]

How will you forge the teeth? They appear to be in a circular pattern which seems would require broaching or punching. Just curious and interested in the approach.

Dick

[Timothy Miller]

Whatever you forge them from they should have some sort of edge holding ability. They will need to bight into the pipe that they are being used to turn.

[pkrankow]

I thought teeth were milled on...
You already stated having an end mill, why not see if there is a cutter that can make teeth, granted the half plier would need to stand on end to be cut, but that is a relatively simple jig.

[JNewman]

The teeth look like they are not entirely radial there appears to be draft. However I have since spoken to the customer and have more details. It sounds like tongs will work for their application and will be necessary to keep the price reasonable. It turns out teeth exactly like the ones on the old pliers will not not be needed but I have to work out with the customer what they do. If it turns out that there was not draft to the teeth I could have cut them with the curve opened up and then closed it. I may have had to do some filing to sharpen the tops of the teeth or contained the sides to help fill in the points.

I am going to make some sample tongs and perfect the design with him. If they work out well he may be able to supply his former supplier of these pliers with the tongs and create a much bigger market.

[JNewman]

Now that you guys have brought it up I am not sure that I could have forged the teeth up to a point. I have cut teeth into tong bits but they were just crosshatched chisel marks. I think that I probably would have tried to rough forge them in with a top tool, and then used a file to sharpen them up Setting up a bridgeport to cut each tooth individually would take forever and a custom cutter would probably be too expensive for the volume. Maybe a simple broach would be a good way to cut the teeth, forge the curve and then force a cutter down between the plier jaw and a backer. Shims could allow the cut to be made in a couple of cuts if necessary.

[JNewman]

If you were of a mind to you could just buy these and doctor them up but that wouldn't be nice http://cgi.ebay.com/Crescent-gas-and-burner-pliers_W0QQitemZ320451787615QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9c6a3b5f or these http://cgi.ebay.com/Vaughan-Bushnell-Gas-and-Burner-Pliers-Wrench-Tool_W0QQitemZ360232477405QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53df8762dd

He has some of the pliers in stock but when they are gone he cannot get more. The ebay ones will just delay his need for a replacement.

[bigfootnampa]

You might be able to make a mandrel to form the teeth around. Maybe a chunk of Monel or something really hard like that. Well done tongs will be every bit the equal (and MORE) to any ordinary pliers. You could also form your teeth with a toothed drift.

[Frosty]

.....the complete modern blacksmith by alexander g weygor???? lots about making pliers...hope this helps...



alec

That's the book Alec. Alexander Weygers has something for making darned near any tool a person might need in a metal shop. Pliers, Shears and scissors included.

Making the teeth would probably be the most challenging part and I'd try making a spring die as a first off. A toothed drift could darned well be a better bet.

A little while later, after thinking about it. Forget the closed die idea, it won't work. I'm changing my inexperienced (plierwright that is) opinion to the broach as the best bet. A broach being the "toothed drift" previously mentioned.

Oh yeah, post pics as you go please.

Frosty the Lucky.

[Dave Budd]

would it not be easier to just file the teeth in once the jaws are forged and ground to the right shape?

[John B]

Or hot chisel them in as they did when making files and pliers / grips before the foreign (broached from a solid piece) displaced the manufacture of the traditionally drop forged and hand finished ones that last

[Francis Trez Cole]

the complete modern blacksmith by weygers project 17 is about making pliers

[Timothy Miller]

The fastest way In my humble opinion would be to do it hot. But there are several problems with that idea. How do you space the cuts evenly? How do you make sure the cuts are all the same depth. Perhaps some sort of jig that supports the tool and has guides for the hot cut. So it wont look too rough and all of the teeth will be the same height so they wear evenly. I don't know enough about broaching to give an informed opinion about that.

[Sam Salvati]

You could use an annular cutter in your milling machine to get the other half of the joint made.

[JNewman]

You could use an annular cutter in your milling machine to get the other half of the joint made.

That would cut off the bits and reins. There is a round pocket cut in both halves that could be cut with an end mill, but take a look at the other half of each half, it is round with the bits and reins interupting the circle. At first I thought the rivet was actually a tenon but if you look carefully there is a circle on each side of a pair of pliers.

After talking to the customer it turns out this is just for pulling hot castings out of permanent moulds so I am not sure I need to serrate the fullered section. My plan right now is to serrate the small end of the bits that closes and just leave the fullered section smooth. I am going to make a small chisel that has multiple edges more a forming tool than a chisel and try that. If they want the serration on the fullered section as well I am going to make a fuller with serrations even if the sharp points don't develope I think the grooves will do the job.

[John B]

Hi John, is it time to step back and have a look at this problem based on what you have revealed so far?

Why were pliers originally used? Was it because they were convenient, or the proper tool for the job?

Most metal castings are handled using tongs, what are these made of?

I am sure you could design a pair of tongs that would do the job at least as easily as the pliers. Even incorporating a piece that will dislodge the casting to enable it to be lifted out, or to fit into an exposed cavity to get a grip.

Have you a picture of the item to be removed, and the tooling it is to be removed from, as this would help. They must be quite small

Better to try to design a new proper tool than to try and reproduce a tool that works, but may not be the right one for the job

Interesting project. Good luck with it.

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

John B has the right approach. Look at the problem, not at the solution they had found, who knows when/how/why/who. Try to get a chance to observe the operation and find a better solution. They don't really need "pliers", they need "casting removal tools"! Design a tool that does the job at least as good, maybe better.

[JNewman]

Hi John, is it time to step back and have a look at this problem based on what you have revealed so far?

Why were pliers originally used? Was it because they were convenient, or the proper tool for the job?

Most metal castings are handled using tongs, what are these made of?

I am sure you could design a pair of tongs that would do the job at least as easily as the pliers. Even incorporating a piece that will dislodge the casting to enable it to be lifted out, or to fit into an exposed cavity to get a grip.

Have you a picture of the item to be removed, and the tooling it is to be removed from, as this would help. They must be quite small

Better to try to design a new proper tool than to try and reproduce a tool that works, but may not be the right one for the job

Interesting project. Good luck with it.

This is exactly the plan right now. It turns out the pliers were used because they worked. I have talked to the customer and am waiting for pictures of the product being removed, although these seem to be used for quite a few different castings, and I want to avoid overly customizing them because of the price point he is hoping for. I discussed with my customer making something that will do a better job of removing the castings than the pliers. I am going to make a prototype pair and hopefully meet with the end user to improve them and have a far better solution than the pliers. For my prototypes I am leaning towards something that is closer to being a pair of pickups with heavier bits and serrations on the lip but not on the fullered groove so they can get a good grip to break the castings free of the mould .

[John B]

I think I would consider making a visit to the client to see and handle the product and where it is to be removed from if it within reasonable travelling distance

You could also see what other applications he needs them for and come away with a better feel for the job

[pkrankow]

Discovery channel "how its made" season 4 episode 26 has a segment on modern pliers being made. There is no video on the Discovery website though.

Just throwing it out there.

I agree that using a tool because "it works" and having a tool that is meant/designed for the purpose are two very different things. Best of luck with your customer.

Phil

[Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver]

Getting in to see would be best. Keep a sharp eye out if you get in, I often found great opportunities that way. "Oh, can you make those"?

[JNewman]

I am going to do my best to go in to see them used. My customer is a distributor, the disadvantage of that is it's harder to get direct contact with the end user. The advantage is that he is looking at a much higher volume than selling them individually, he will keep these in stock and order at least 10 at a time. Making and selling them individually can eat up so much time that I won't make any money on them. If I can get a product that works as well or better than the pliers he is going to try and sell them to his former supplier of the pliers which may raise the volume even higher.