Begginer Frusteration

[So-Steve]

Yay! First thread.

Yeah, well, I'm back from vacation and I had a great time. Of course, as soon as the weekend came around I went in back to my forge set-up and started hammering away. Out of practice of course and getting back into the feel of it. I started forging some of the rebar I picked up in Kansas, trying to make it into an anvil hold-down. Long story short, I broke it and tried making something else, which got screwed up also :mad: . By this time I'm tired and I decide to clean up before I wear myself out.

Well, this is my plea for some help for a poor begginer. I realize of course that a major part of the problem is hammer control and I need to get a better feel for the metal, which comes with time. I was wondering if there were some other things I could do to practice though. I know how to make a simple leaf and a simple hook. Are there some other simple projects I could do to practice? I don't have much time to work because of school, but I manage. Just any advice for a begginer would be appreciated.

In completely unrelated news, my teacher in school offered me an independant study in the autoshop, so I get to spend the whole year working in there tinkering around. Probably going to learn a lot too. It makes me happy just thinking about it .

[Rich Hale]

I am impressed that you asked for help. Keep in mind that most smiths know exactly what you feel as we have been there,,,several times over along period of time. Go back into the files of bps on this site or go to anvilfire and dig into the demos there..select a few and print them out to use as study guides and work notes..Pay attention to materials used. they were selected for the task at hand,,that will be a valuable thing for you now and later. Yu may want to begin with mild steel. I think you already get it,,start with something you can succed with and you will feel alot better. Good luck

[Chris Pook]

if at all possible try and take a beginer class even just for an afternoon, it will save you alot of headaches a give you a good foundation to build on.

[So-Steve]

Thanks you two, all suggestions appreciated.

Rich, I looked through the blueprints and am printing out possible projects that I'll be able to accomplish after I get a few more tools (fuller, punch, and such) They actually turned out to be a big help, thanks a lot. I'm also printing out some of the more explanatory stuff like the science of heat treating. I'm taking an AP chemistry course this year for that very purpose as well. All help appreciated.

Chris, I actually do take begginer classes, and I do much better in a classroom setting. I take classes at Peter's Valley (maybe you've heard of it) when I can. It does help a lot, but I'd like to take more classes. My overly ambitious self is making me impatient though :cool: .

[Thomas Dean]

So-Steve, rebar is a very fickle material to work with. You may be able to work one piece then try something else from a different joint and it goes to pot! been there done that. If possible go to a scrap yard and explain to the 'man in charge' just what you would like to do....walk through the yard and find some scrap to work with. Tell them what you do and why you want to purchase the scrap. (they may drop their jaw or ask if you shoe horses! hehe) The cost will be minimal (pennies per lb.) and you can usually find mild steel that you can use. Make sure to take gloves, hard hat, and safety glasses, also let them know you have these items, it gives them a sense of security that you will be safe! Not every scrap dealer will let you in or sale you scrap but don't give up, they are out there. The next time you go you might think about taking something as a gift---hat/coat hook, triangle bell, leaf key-fob, most anything to show appreciation and it will get you in a lot easier!
Also on anvilfire there is a "demo" on how to make a "Cleft note" chime, I will use rebar on this item occasionally and it has a nice ring to it when finished. (music teachers LOVE them and they sale good) Well, I've rambled long enough. Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

[Chris Pook]

for material you could also try a fab shop... theres always a scrap bin, and a case of beer on a friday gets you alot of steel.

[Glenn]

BP0188 How to find things BP0184 Look-see This is a good place to start in your search for materials and tools. Explaination of colors: I divide red, orange, and yellow (the colors of heated metal) into 3 groups each. Start with black then low red, medium red and high red, low orange, medium orange, and high orange, low yellow, medium yellow, and high yellow, then white heat. This is followed by sparks. The lower temperatures have more seperation in heat colors than the seperation in heat colors at high temperatures. The difference is suttle, and everyone sees color differently. The same colors are different temperatures in bright sun then in shade. You need to standardize to your conditions. The 12 color divisions (black to sparks) are enough for discussion purposes, and are repeatable under YOUR conditions. This is the time you need to find a steel yard and BUY some new stock. It will move a certain way under the hammer each (every) time. Feel the hammer when it hits the metal at different temperatures. If you see the color of the mild steel as red stop and take another heat, get it back up to working temperature. Put the metal into the fire and get it hot enough to throw sparks, just like a 4th of July (USA) sparkler. This is usually when the metal is at high yellow or white in color. You have now sucessfully burned the metal, don't do it again as that is TOO HOT. Cut the burnt end off the stock. Put the stock back into the fire and heat to (for mild steel) high orange or yellow and hit it with a hammer. Feel how it moves upon impact. When the metal gets to low orange in color by loosing heat, it will stiffen a bit. Warm it back up and do it again. Cut the end of the stock to where there is new material. Put it in the fire and bring it only up to showing low red in color. Hit it with the hammer and feel how it moves (or dowsn't want to move). Back to the fire and then repeat at orange. Back to the fire and then repeat at yellow. Feel the hammer and watch the metal. You are building YOUR heat standard for YOUR forge under YOUR smithy conditions. I will echo Rich Hale and congradulate you on asking question and seeking assistance. Keep us informed as to your progress. It is a joy to watch some one grow from a beginner to an acomplished blacksmith. IForgeIron is a great group of talented blacksmiths and metal smiths. Who knows what other talents are available in the group, but it is always amazing as to the width and depth of knowledge the group posesses outside the interest in metal.

[Bob H.]

Just a thought, but most beginners I see have a habit of working the metal at too hot, or too cold. Both of which may make it break apart. Keep this in mind, and see if that helps you out.

[HWooldridge]

If you are having some trouble visualizing how the material moves with different parts of the anvil and hammer, you can get a small amount of modeling clay and work with that to get a view of what the steel will do when struck a certain way. It's also helpful for odd projects that require steps to be done in a certain sequence - you can work it out in the clay before spending time in the shop.

I agree that re-bar is a hard way to start as some pieces are high in carbon and prone to burning if overheated. Get a small variety of several stock sizes (it's fairly cheap) and make the item with a minimum of forging. In other words, don't plan to hand forge a piece of 1" stock down to something you can use for a hold-down on the anvil.

Persistence, persistence - it will come with practice and an open mind.

[drason69]

hi 'so-steve'
a note on rebar/rerod, ect...the stuff is basically whatever steel is dumped together at the foundry. sometimes high carbon, other times low. you never know whats going into it. engine blocks, tin cans, even *(gasp) some old wrought iron.....the posibilities of what its made of are endless.....(ok, ive made my point there i think)

best bet, start scavenging if you cant find a scrapyard or fabrication shop to utilize for material. look in your own backyard, a neighbors junk pile, auto repair shop...anything that has to do with metal. somewhere, you will find something they call 'junk', but to you it is usable stock. ive made nice shepards hooks, s hooks, nails, and any manner of other items from old electric fence rods. they run about 5/8-1/2 inch round stock. check out auto salvage....some trunk torsion springs are about 3 feet long and about 1/4-5/8 or so. a tire iron may be short, but can be used for a number of things when heavier rod is needed.

i made a bottom fuller from a grade 8 nut and bolt for my anvil. screw the nut almost all the way down, find someone (or use your own) welder to secure the two articles together (this was a 1 inch diam bolt about 3 inches long). then i just got a good heat (orange or bright red) and started drawing it to a wedge shape. then heated the threaded portion and squared it to fit the hardyhole. the end of the wedge needed a little grinder and file work, but overall it was done. not to mention i had made a tool myself, in the forge and with hammer and anvil....as i was informed 'the mark of a blacksmith'.

try things, ask questions, watch and learn from others when you can.

good luck to ya!

*(my apologies if i have totally re-iterated someone elses post)*

drason

[rthibeau]

I would tend to agree with Glenn that considering the relatively low cost of new mild steel in, say 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" square and round bar, I'd recommend going to a steel supplier and buying half a dozen rods/bars of each of those sizes to start practicing with. You'll know what you are working, mild steel is easier than rebar, and those sizes might be hard to find in scrap, but are ideal to start out with for practice. Most of what you'll learn to make will be out of that size stock and you'll have it of new steel in the event you want to try and sell something.

[So-Steve]

I just want to thank everyone for their help and suggestions. My jaw dropped when I checked the site this morning to see how many people gave suggestions. Thanks a lot!!!

Alright, well now I have a good idea on how the rebar broke. Like Bob said I was working it too cold. I also didn't know that much about rebar aside for the fact it was used in cement. Well, I guess for practicing I'll stick to mild-steels and sized bars. I'll say this though, it was REALLY fun working with the rebar, so I might try it again sometime soon.

Drason: Huh, that's a pretty cool way of making a fuller. I might try something similar or totally different, but I need to make one soon. Your idea gave me a few of my own, so I'll definetly try a few things.

Glenn: I'll definetly look into those two sections in the blueprints. Also, I will defininetly go through the different heats and develope a feel for it. Only problem is, it's difficult to get a piece to white heat with my little propane forge. I'm sure if I pumped up the pressure it would work, but I'm hesitant to do so. Otherwise, it's no problem. Oh right, I AM working in the sun, which makes it slightly difficult to see the colors as closely as I would be able to indoors. I'm sure the whole testing process will help, thanks!

To everyone who suggested junkyards and fab shops, I've been looking into that recently and trying to find places in my area. I know of a few places, but haven't gone yet. I thank everyone for their suggestions in this area as well.

ApprenticeMan: Ha ha ha ha ha, ah man, I know Dick Sargent. Now I REALLY have to find a way to go. Alright, I'll look into the date and scrounge up some cash if I can. Sounds like a lot of fun and a good way to get some quality instruction too. If it doesn't occur during school, I'll probably be able to go. My chaufer (mom) probably won't take me if it conflicts with school .

Well, I better get on top of all of that. Oh, one more thing. Something really weird happens when I quench a piece of metal in my backyard. When a bar is at black heat and I quench it, it'll develope a red coloration. Now, I know that this is hardening cause I've seen it before (Once again, Dick Sargent demo) and am I curious as to why it's happening there. Usually, when I quench a piece of metal at black heat, it'll well...stay black. However, I think the outside conditions might be affecting the way I see the color of the metal and I might be quenching it too hot. Just something weird that happens, and wondering if someone could give me their input.

Thanks a lot!

So-Steve

[Cory]

so-steve or anyone else that gets steel from the steelyard (new) I always check to see what they have in the way of bent pieces of new stock, sometimes 20 foot sections of stock end up getting bent when they offload it and I get that stock for much less than straight pieces. It has been awhile but the last time I got it I bought 25 pieces of 1/2 in square mild at about 60% of the cost of new straight stock.

[Glenn]

Set up a box, bucket, drum or whatever in the shade so that the incoming illumination is 90* to the entrance to the opening on the box etc. The box etc should be deep enough as to create a shadow and the inside should be dark if possible.

Take a piece of metal and bring it up to a temperature you can see first color, a low red. This will be outside in your forge conditions. Quickly step to the box etc and put the same metal into the shadows and look at the "same heat color" but under a different light condition. Watch it slowly cool and watch the color fade till you can no longer see the color in the metal. Quickly step back to the forge and look at the same metal again.

The difference is only light conditions, forge location or inside the box location. It is at the same heat temperature, but you see the color different according to the light available.

In the real world this means you need to standardize your viewing conditions. If at the forge, then fine, that is the standard. If inside the box, that is fine also, as that is your standard. Once you have a standard you can call the color red, "the color red", and know it is YOUR color red.

If you standardize on a day with no clouds in the sky and the sun beaming down, you will have to make certain adjustments for dreary overcast winter weather.

[So-Steve]

Ha ha, will do Glenn. Thanks a lot. You too Cory, thanks for the shopping tips.

[teejay]

Steve get ahold of the NJ blacksmiths - NJBA New Jersey Blacksmiths Association : ABANA (Artist Blacksmith Association of North America) affiliate. check for their next meet and go if you can, I"ll bet you"ll find some smiths there that are willing to teach and help you if you just ask,and don"t be bashful about it.You might find one that lives close by and will help. Good luck

[Rick Barter]

Here's my $0.02...

I would stress taking your time. I always find that I mess up most when I'm in a hurry and beating the snot out of something without taking the time to look at it, plan what I want to do with it, and thoughtfully execute. Start out slowly and just do one or two hammer blows. You don't have to taper it to a point in a nano-second. Hit it a couple of times and look at it. Is it doing what you want? If not, why?

Also, I find it helps to have a plan when I go into the forge. If I don't, I just spin my wheels and waste a bunch of time and coal. But, if I go in having sketched something out on paper or a least mulled it over in my mind long enough to have a clear plan on what I'm going to do, success is almost assured.

One thing I've started doing and it has helped immensely is something Rand McDaniel says in his book/video. Get some non-hardening modelling clay, a hammer, and something to use as an anvil (I use a 1 x 6). Practice the different types of hammer blows. Practice with clay a piece you want to forge. It will help you "see" what's going to happen when at the forge.

I hope this helps a bit. Good luck with your auto-shop class. Take advantage of every opportunity you get to learn and have fun! :)

[Chris Pook]

and remember its alot easier to move a piece of hot metal than a cold one....no shame in taking another heat.

[So-Steve]

Heh heh, yeah, I do tend to work cold. I do get the piece hot at first, but when the red starts fading, I think "Well, I can just touch it up a bit. Straigten it out." It doesn't do much at that moment, but it deteriorates the metal later. I'll try to make it a habit not to work below light cherry.

And I've heard a lot about that modelling clay thing, A LOT a lot. You've got to be the bagillionth person Rick. So, if so many people say it's good, well then chances are it's good. I'll go ahead and do it, it'll be nice too. I'll be able to actually practice hammering without having to bring everything outside and light up for 10 min.

Also, I get a little impatient when I'm trying to be critical of how I'm forging. I suppose I'll devote a session of forging to correcting myself, getting myself into the flow of hammering and keeping the beat and not losing sight of my final product. I'll have a lot of projects to work on too because I went on a printing spree in the blueprints section .

Also, I'm planning on going to a few more get togethers. I'll be meeting a lot of people at this NBA thing soon, and I do know a good smith about an hour away who's good friends with my uncle. Tom Mirana (I always spell his last name wrong ) is the guy. Get supplies and lots of good tips from him too. Plan on meeting more too.

Thanks Rick, your two cents is two dollars according to my exchange rate . You too Chris and Teejay, thanks.

[Nomad]

The only thing constructive I can add is make good use of your auto shop time. Glob onto every spring you can as these are temperable and can be reworked down the road, even if you don't have the skills yet.

Good luck.

Nomad

[brucerdn]

Always check at the local high schools and colleges. If they have some kind of industrial arts program you'll be able to get some decent steel for free because at least around here the schools have to pay someone to haul it off.

Also I usually lurk more than submit, but this site has been an invaluable resource to me and I'm sure many others. I check it every chance I get and everytime I get on I find that someone has already asked and answered my Question Thanks Glenn and everyone else

[Glenn]

There is an "archives" button at the bottom of the page. Click on it to get to into the past conversations or threads.

Also at the bottom of the page left, as an option for how many posts you want to show, what order and etc. Many times the posts fall outside your request time frame and seem to disappear. Adjust your time frame and they will appear once more. This keeps your viewing screen from being cluttered.

I am glad you find the site useful. I Forge Iron tries to keep something new on the site each time you log in. It is the contributors that made the site what it is today. Our thanks and gratitude for the knowledge posted on the site goes to them.

[the_sandy_creek_forge]

So-Steve,
Disclaimer: this might be a little off topic, but it contains good advice IMNSHO. End Disclaimer.
Since it seems like you've recently begun smithin, may I suggest looking into this article and then following up by looking into what it is talking about:

Changing The Way You Work: The Alexander Technique

The Alexander technique is a way of going about day to day life and work that makes movement "easier" on your body. I first learned about this in a college class, but unfortunately by then I'd already had 4 or 5 years of bad posture at the anvil under my belt. Once you get into the habit of working in a bad posture it is hard to break. After I saw this article I dug out my textbook from the class and forced myself to use the technique for one whole day in my shop. Sure enough, i didn't feel quite as stiff the next morning when I woke up, unfortunately I had to stop myself multiple times during each task and get adjusted around to make the technique effective. Since then I try to use a more "proper" technique, and it has helped to some degree.

Interestingly enough, the gentleman who invented the technique was the son of a blacksmith.
The more you know....
-Aaron @ The SCF

[So-Steve]

ApprenticeMan: Yup, I'm about an hour away from Tom. Dang, you live pretty close don't ya? That's kinda weird .

Bruce: I actually am doing that sort of class at my high school. Just doing whatever needs to be done in the shop and I get free reign of the tools. Plus, my teacher has recently expressed interest in putting a gas powered forge in the autoshop . Should be fun.

Sandy: Wow, this is very good to know. I should study that link and get into "good" posture before I mess up my back or anything. This helps a lot, I really appreciate it.

Ha ha ha, yes, so much advice, so much info. This is really awesome. *Gives Glenn a big hug*

[Dale Russell]

G'Day So-Steve,
just my 2 cent's worth too.
Forgin' practice , start with some 12 mm ( 1/2" ) square , heat & beat to to 10 mm ( 3/8" ) round , then heat & beat to 8 mm ( 5/16" ) square , then heat beat to 6 mm ( 1/4 " ) round , this'll give youse an idea on how metal moves when hot .

I always start at forge with a simple leaf ( Thank's for the idea Strine ) as a warm up piece .

Remember to keep the iron your beatin' " HOT " , ain't no fun poundin' on " COLD " iron & it just wear's youse out .

Another tip , miss once ( rememberin' ta duck as hammer comes back at youse ) time to think about what youse is doin' , miss twice time to think about packin' up for the day .

Just idea's , ifin' youse use em is up ta you

Dale Russell ( aka ) chopper