Cool Hand Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I searched before asking but didn't find what I was looking for. Trying to get a basic sense of what copper coated iron grounding rod is comprised of. It is half of what the round stock here goes for. Just curious as to your thoughts on what it's application could be. High carbon iron or just crap? I would love to use it on a few things I have in mind. Your insight is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I confess that I do not know but you could spark test one and get an idea of where they might be. Typically, extremely low carbon grades are used for electrical work in those apps where steel is required (like 1008) - but it makes more sense to use something a little stiffer on a ground rod because it gets driven and must resist impact to a degree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Hand Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 My thoughts exactly. Really curious if it will work. Thanks H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 i do agree,mild steel, yhey are designed to be driven in a stationary location...we have to drive them in on rig moves, and they will mushroom on the top and bens fairly easily.that,s all i know about em. jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fe-Wood Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Realy only one way to find out, Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 I heard copper in a forge was a bad thing for some reason. Anybody know why? Also how do you easily remove copper from steel? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Hand Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 "Drop a penny in the forge and the smith cant weld until he cleans it out" From "The Blacksmith Craft". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Turley Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I just returned from the shop where I spark tested a 10' length of the grounding rod that has been in my scrap pile for about 20 years! I got a medium carbon spark, meaning it's between 1030 and 1052, I'm guessing toward the lower end. I don't know of a quick way to remove copper from iron. In fact, at a heat, copper has an affinity for iron. Copper can be used as a hard solder for brazing ferrous metals. If the iron or steel is clean and at a good cherry red, the copper will melt and flow by capillary action between the tightly fitted pieces. It goes into the ferrous surface for a few thousands of an inch causing the bond. If the copper was initially deposited by an electrolytic process, perhaps that process could be reversed, but I'm out of my area of blacksmithing, so I'm guessing. Horseshoers are a different breed of cat than blacksmiths. A horseshoer is said to surreptitiously throw an all-copper penny in a coal forge in order to screw up another horseshoer's forge weld. Big joke! I have never experimented with this, but if the weld is messed up, it is probably because of cuprous oxides permeating the fire and getting on the work surfaces. Turley Forge and Blacksmithing School Edited October 13, 2009 by Frank Turley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti_forge Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Yeah, the penny weld was common before they changed the penny composition. Now it's mostly antimony, I think. You could maybe etch the copper off the surface using a strong acid. Ferric Chloride would probably work since it is designed to dissolve copper traces on circuit boards. Just an idea. If you do choose to use any acids, make sure you follow all safety precautions and completely avoid the method if you have no idea what you are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakedanvil - Grant Sarver Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 With enough screwing around you might even be able to make the ground rod material cost MORE! Try to find a fabricator near you that will sell you steel at a reasonable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattBower Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I'm going to guess that the standards for carbon content of ground rods are pretty flexible; I don't think carbon has much to do with how well they perform their intended function. If you etch copper with an acid or ferric chloride, and then put steel in the etchant, the copper will plate out onto the steel -- but there'll be no real chemical bond to speak if. You can wipe off the Cu pretty easily. So yeah, acid should take that stuff right off. The copper will probably re-deposit on the steel, but it won't be tightly bound and you should be able to easily scrub it off. Even an overnight soak in vinegar will probably do it, depending on the thickness of the copper. Of course a little coarse sandpaper would accomplish the same thing like, right now, and it won't create the problem of how to dispose of your metal-contaminated acid. Modern pennies (post 1982 or 1983, IIRC) are something like 95% zinc and 5% copper. I'm skeptical that copper in the forge is really a problem unless you're setting your work down in a big puddle of dirty, nasty, copper-containing flux in the bottom of the forge. I've made copper-nickel mokume in my gas welding forge and subsequently welded steel and wrought iron in there with no problem -- but the work never touches the bottom of the forge, where all the nasty crud collects. Edited October 13, 2009 by MattBower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Zinc, US pennies are mostly Zinc nowdays with the changeover being in the 1980's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 In 1982 pennies changed over to Zinc, with a copper plate. It takes something like 150 copper pennies to make a pound, so when copper scrap was hitting close to $4 a pound I am sure some hit the scrap pile. I agree with Nakedanvil. Sell the rod if you cannot use it, and buy some material that you know what the alloy is. Steel is still relatively inexpensive, but copper is still up there. We are still getting around $2 a pound for chips, and bar ends off of the machines. So the ground rod is probably worth more than a plain steel bar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragons lair Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Doubt there is any spec for ground rods. The copper is only there as a conductor. Pull one out after driving thru gravel the copper is too scraped to offer much protection to the steel rod. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob S Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 (edited) If you search McMasterCarr for 'electric grounding rods' you get this... Grounding Rods— Connect an electrical system to a ground. Made of nickel-plated steel that's heavily plated in copper for high levels of conductivity and good corrosion resistance. Threaded rods provide the best connection when joining two rods with couplers (sold below). Rods meet or exceed UL standard 467 and ANSI C33.8. An 8' x 1/2"D rod will set you back about $15.64 + shipping. Buy good steel. By the time you burn thru the copper and nickel you will probably have a headache. If you insist on using it be sure you have plenty of ventilation. Edited October 14, 2009 by Bob S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Copper in the forge: at a local horseshoing school all students were taught to copper braze in the coal forges as part of the metal working class. The last ten years or so there was a gas forge added and they were also shown copper brazing in it. In addition to copper brazing with both types of forges they also made shoes and tools including forge welded shoes. So every forge had copper melted in it and each and everyone was counted on for forge welding.....No problems as a result of the copper. If student had a problem with a forge weld an instructor would use that forge and demonstrate it as many times as it took to let them learn. One small problem we had with copper is if you got some fairlly new copper electrical wire it was odd and not melt right...some old stuff worked fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti_forge Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 I line my forge with kitty litter. It soaks up the slag/flux from forge welding and definitely catches the errant copper drip when I'm making mokume. I replace it ever few weeks and have zero issues with contamination when making damascus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cool Hand Posted October 14, 2009 Author Share Posted October 14, 2009 What an amazing variety of information and feedback jammed into 2 pages. I really appreciate the input, everything from safety, to stupidity, and finances. You guys are fantastic! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Trez Cole Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 find out the maker and contact them and see if they have a standard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 I searched before asking but didn't find what I was looking for. Trying to get a basic sense of what copper coated iron grounding rod is comprised of. It is half of what the round stock here goes for. Just curious as to your thoughts on what it's application could be. High carbon iron or just crap? I would love to use it on a few things I have in mind. Your insight is appreciated. Even if it is not "high carbon iron" (which would be steel)...it is not necessarily "crap" Unless you are making tools or blades that need to be hardened, mild steel is what you want for making just about everything else. (inluding many tools) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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