Scrolls and Collars

[John B]

I am not forming complete collars and then re-opening them to insert onto a structure to then recollar. I could see this as a good way to make and install a very critical single or few collars on a complex hard to get to shape. But for trivets as shown I don't see the need for all that.

On the other hand I am wanting to rely on some simple, versatile tools to make this fast, easy and tight. A saw some stuff about making the collar, fitting, folding the ears, unfolding, affixing and then finalizing. This makes sense to me for a difficult hard to reach single, gotta be real tight collar. BUt when access isn't a challenge I'm thinking this can be done very successfully without all that effort. Make a collar, fit it to the structure, fold the ears, done. If you can do it in one heat... fabulous. Otherwise two heats max.

Then again my brain has wiring that is generally different than most. SOmetimes that is good. Other times not. The other thing is I generally say what's on my mind. I appreciate a challenge to my thinking.

Two heats are ok on smaller sections. Large and shaped will take
longer (Fact of life and depends on finish required)

Make your collar to a mandrel, use the mandrel to drive the U shape into your fixture, and form the completed collar shape

If you are having trouble with them jamming in your fixture, the trick is to make your gap a tad larger than the finished outside dimension of the collar as determined previously (materials in collar, plus twice the thickness of the collaring material)

This will then allow you to hit the "ears" down onto the mandrel giving you the finished collar, you can then withdraw the collar from the fixture more easily and the collar is the finished shape to slide off the mandrel (one heat)




Reheat the collar (Second heat)

Then using the bow tongs or scrolling tongs open it up to fit over the parts to be joined



Then use the bow tongs to press in the sides and consolidate with the hammer on the ears to secure the collar.

This way you will get a constant close fitting collar provided the mandrel is correct size.

Battered ears from U's are always going to potentially create problems with fit and finish.

Personally I would prefer to take more heats to get a secure neat collar first time rather than try and get it done as quick as possible, and have a sloppy one (Fit or looking.)

I'll try and get you pics of the adjustable fixture I use in the flypress.

[John B]

Here are some pictures as promised. I use this in the flypress, but there is no reason why it cannot be used secured on an anvil, all the top tool is is a flat ended blade that pushes the mandrel down into the tool.



The two white lines are scribed on referances to help centre the blank prior to forming the U



The edges of the blocks are radiused to allow metal to flow over them more easily when forming the U

The adjusters are just bolts with locknuts on through tapped blocks to fix them and stop them moving when in use if you are doing a long run of collars on the tool.

The tool is adjusted using the mandrel, and two pieces of the collaring stock, it should be a slightly loose fit



The heated collaring material is then placed centred over the gap using the scribed marks to locate it (shown cold here) ready to be formed



The mandrel is placed on top in the centre and driven down to form the U, again shown cold.
The position of the split in the collar may be important, so the gap could be set up for a different orientation using the same mandrel



The 'ears' can then be formed around the mandrel and consolidated on the anvil whilst still hot, it can then be removed from the mandrel ready for fitting in the next heat



The collar is then reheated, opened up with the bow tongs or scrolling tongs,



Placed in situ and closed with thebow tongs, and hammered on the faces to consolidate the fit, it will tighten as it cools and shrinks

This may be of use or not, but it works for me.

The tooling is well used and many years old and just Bright finished mild steel used for the blocks, no heat treatment, and shows little signs of wear, becaused they are loose in the guides, they can be easily replaced if required, and if the U sticks, as you lift the form out, the blocks will lift and fall away from the collar so you can quickly finish off forming the collar.

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

Nice tooling, John B, my first thoughts were a similar adjustable device, but I went with the simpler gap tool that I came up with because of the cost of duplicating it. I think every metal shop should have this technology, because it is the most efficient means that I have seen to join pieces of metal together and form structures. There are a lot better ways of loading and driving than one at a time by eyeball and hand. I'd like to have a machine that cut, loaded, drove, and spit out the collars.
Kelly, you did miss a very key piece of the collaring tool. Look back at the third and forth picture in the 34th post in this thread, and you will see it. You are missing the pieces that fill in the gap between the shoulders that stick up. Other people have done the same thing, and it won't work without them. Also, if you look on the 4th post at the second picture, you will see the collaring tools of a specific gap that I mentioned to do larger jobs on a layout table that you can hammer on. With those you can close the collars while every thing is together on the layout table. Give me a call anytime if you have any questions. We thought about stopping by the other day on our way back from Texas, but Karen wanted to get back home; we were gone a week.

[John B]

Thanks for clarifing that Brian, different horses, same courses, I went for versatility because space is at a premium in my shop, and that was my choice of how to save space on storage.

All the best for Christmas and the New year to you and Karen and Lyle as well as everyone else here on the site.

[Elemental Metal Creations]

Brian, Thanks for bringing this thread back to life. You remind me of a math teacher I had in high school. Out of the many that I had he was the one teacher that could explain any math problem in a way that I could understand it. I read the posts and instruction here any sometimes don't quite grasp the concepts but when you explain them it is like someone turned on the lights.
Thank you.Jerry

[Randy]

I do my collars the same way as John does except I just use the post vise open to fit the opening required. I have a bunch of mandrels of different combinations and sizes depending on the job I was doing. The mandrel is also used to figure the length of the stock for the collar. Roll the mandrel over the stock once for each side and then add twice the thickness of the collar material and cut off. Adjust if required. The COSIra books show this method with out the vise in their Wrought Ironwork book which you can get free on line.

[Borntoolate]

Nice tooling, John B, my first thoughts were a similar adjustable device, but I went with the simpler gap tool that I came up with because of the cost of duplicating it. I think every metal shop should have this technology, because it is the most efficient means that I have seen to join pieces of metal together and form structures. There are a lot better ways of loading and driving than one at a time by eyeball and hand. I'd like to have a machine that cut, loaded, drove, and spit out the collars. Kelly, you did miss a very key piece of the collaring tool. Look back at the third and forth picture in the 34th post in this thread, and you will see it. You are missing the pieces that fill in the gap between the shoulders that stick up. Other people have done the same thing, and it won't work without them. Also, if you look on the 4th post at the second picture, you will see the collaring tools of a specific gap that I mentioned to do larger jobs on a layout table that you can hammer on. With those you can close the collars while every thing is together on the layout table. Give me a call anytime if you have any questions. We thought about stopping by the other day on our way back from Texas, but Karen wanted to get back home; we were gone a week.

Brian, Actually when I used this tool I did have the other pieces. So there was a full compliment of bars running fully across and in between the two uprights. The pic above just doesn't show all that because I used several of the pieces to make the hardy tool shown. My setup just wasn't as stable as yours. I have some ideas on how to improve that easily. I just need to decide if I want to do something a little more versatile etc.

Feel free to stop by any time. Even if you just want some free room and board. The guest house is generally free.

[Borntoolate]

JohnB thanks for the posts and pics. I like the adjustability of the tool you have. I could easily moddify the plate I have to be similar. Maybe even some T-Handles on the adjustment bolts. I am out of town so away from my shop. So I wake up in the morning thinking about how to redo the tooling when I get back next week. This info helps feed my thinking. -_-

[Borntoolate]

John B,
When you are setting the gap for making a collar do you give yourself a little clearance on the tool? If so how much? does this depend on if the pieces you are collaring are straight or curved? OR do you go for tight and rely on the heat to expand the collar a bit and then shrink to fit. Or maybe I am just thinking to hard...

[John B]

Hi,
Just a little allowance, probably thickness of a thin card. I close up the movable jaws clamping the mandrel and two pieces of stock (usually a couple of the pieces I have cut to the length for the collars I am making) then back off one of the bolts about 1 facet of the hexagon, then lock the bolts in position, using the lock nuts, then check for slight movement

I find this allows me to drive the collar down to form the U and this is enough for the formed shape to grip the mandrel, I then shift to the anvil and placing one side of the U on the step on my anvil with the base of the U up against the step, and forge down one of the ears, then flip the mandrel and part formed collar over, and on the face of the anvil, knock the other ear down, rotate and hit each side down gives a nice square corner to the collar.

By doing this you ensure the collar is a close fit to the mandrel, which is the size of the workpiece, so when it is fitted, cools and shrinks slightly, it will be tight.

Then slip the collar off, cool the mandrel and get on with the next one.

The finished collar is then ready to be reheated, opened up with the bow/scrolling tongs and fitted to the workpiece.

You can have a session making the collars, then thread them onto a piece of wire or cord ready for when you need them

In my workshop, I usually make the mandrel from the steel I am using to make the pieces to be joined. The reason I do this is because some of the steel stock are not spot on compatible, since the stock makers have gone metric, the prime example is 1/2" square bar has become 12mm, and the flat bars which used to be 1/2" wide have become 13mm, By using the same stock, it gives a good snug fit to the form of the bars used to make the piece.

If the stock of the workpiece is totally forged and not stock bar, then I would forge a mandrel to the size of the pieces where they are to be collared, and use that.

[GMoore]

Merry Christmas, Brian!

[keithh999]

Hiya All and Brian too...LOL OK this scroll thing is kicking my butt trying to get a smooth consistant shape..The math involved for the golden meany thing is wayyyy over my head! tried to make a c-scroll that would fit in a 12 inch circle but my stock length came out to 29 inches!! i made an initial scrolling jig and then used the 3/8s scroll i made with it to try and match up to my 12 circle (quartered) on the floor....NOPE...didnt work...used the scroll and found that i had almost a 3/8" gap all around so im guessing that im getting closer. will have to try the scroll jig to make a scroll to make a scroll that will fit in the 12" circle. Would go out the window tho if i used anything other than 3/8 stock. but the stock length dimensions are nowhere near what Brian has developed and I was wondering if anyone had any ideas why?? Is it due to the tapering?? gaining 2 1/2" on each end?? Its starting to drive me buggy!!

[John B]

Hi Keith, some of things based on what you have put, that may or may not help.

Brian's stock length was 24" before he started drawing the ends for the scrolls, no mention of the overall length after he had drawn the ends, and we all draw ends to differing lengths depending on the elegance of the required scroll end ( the longer the taper, the more elegant the scroll end 'C'' or 'S')

I also think he was using 1/4" thick material as opposed to your 3/8"?

Brian also made his jigs twice using 1/4" material, and adjusted them until the finished scroll fitted the situation, the first jig being based on the Golden Mean, which in practice (IMHO) does not make a particularly attractive scroll, and then pulled part of the scroll cold, which again departs from the actual finished size from the second scroll jig he made (it springs out slightly)

The only defined actual sizes are 24" stock length

You also mentioned "Quartering" your 12 circle, Trivets have 3 scrolls, quatrefoils have four not sure why you introduced this.

Is your ring 12" Internal diameter, or external diameter? this will also make a difference on the fit.

If you only have a 3/8" gap all around, it would seem to me you are reasonably near to what you want, and if you have made your scroll to your jig, I would suggest making another scrolling jig (using 3/8") material from your existing one, (which would tie in with what Brian did if I understand his method correctly), this should then remove that gap and give you what you want.

I hope this helps somewhat and you get the results you desire. (it can be very frustrating this blacksmithing lark)

[keithh999]

Yes i "quartered my circle so that one element of the C would fit into it seeing as how thats what the jig itself would make (ie. half of a c scroll). Just found it difficult to wrap my head around the possible fact he was actually drawing out a taper an additional 2 1/2 inches....i mean it can be done no problem to get that looooong slender taper and on heavier stock would need to be done for the elegant sweep. Im just guessing that every size of stock would have to have its own scroll jig for every size of scroll.....guess ill have to get busy building more shelves for all the different sizes of scroll jigs...grrrrr
I also did the paper drawing of the golden meany thing last nite on some graph paper and i see what he means about it not being pleasing enough or doing what he was after so that was another dead end.....another grrrrr!!

[jeremy k]

The golden mean is fine for a line drawing, but for a forged piece one needs to account for the thickness of the mat'l. This is were the "negative" space comes into play when making scrolls that look good. The golden formulas are a good starting point then tweak from there as needed.

[Randy]

Usually I don't like the golden mean or Archimedes spiral/scroll as it opens up too fast, but there are no set rules. I generally look at the negative space. This space should gradually open as the scroll grows. Like a snails' shell.

There are occasions where the negative space stays the same. The gap is equal. That seems to be an easier scroll to make but learning the other way will gain more vision and control for the smith, besides looking better in my opinion.

The other part of scroll making is learning all of the different forged ends.

[Randy]

I tried to add these photos last time but my sizes were off. The one of the snail so you can see the type of spiral I was referring to. One showing the more gradual opening spiral and a pile of ones I did for an old fence in NYC being restored to show the equal spacing.

[John B]

Yes i "quartered my circle so that one element of the C would fit into it seeing as how thats what the jig itself would make (ie. half of a c scroll). Just found it difficult to wrap my head around the possible fact he was actually drawing out a taper an additional 2 1/2 inches....i mean it can be done no problem to get that looooong slender taper and on heavier stock would need to be done for the elegant sweep. Im just guessing that every size of stock would have to have its own scroll jig for every size of scroll.....guess ill have to get busy building more shelves for all the different sizes of scroll jigs...grrrrr I also did the paper drawing of the golden meany thing last nite on some graph paper and i see what he means about it not being pleasing enough or doing what he was after so that was another dead end.....another grrrrr!!

Half of a C scroll in a 12" diameter quartered will not get you a trefoil in a 12" diameter circle, which you need for a strong structure,

In one of the samples shown, two "C" scrolls were fitted and collared into a circle, this method is technically not the strong structure that a trefoil has in a circle, the positioning of the collars means there is a strong possibility that they will become loose and the fitted scrolls will become sloppy and loose.

The reason for this is obvious if you look at the picture, there is no solid triangulation in that configuration. Collars should fit where the scroll nestles/fits with the next piece it is to be secured to. By doing this you make a strong/solid construction. This type of collar is supposed to be functional, as well as decorative, on this sample it fails as a functionally sound structure.


To quote you, " .....Im just guessing that every size of stock would have to have its own scroll jig for every size of scroll...." technically is probably correct, Practically 6 or 7 should cover most situations, I knew one blacksmith, long dead now who only ever had two scroll jigs that he used for production work on railings, gates etc all others were forged for the situation as required by hand I can still recognise his work by his unique scroll styles when passing gates and railings he made.

What I would suggest to anyone learning this craft (and I still include myself as learning) is to make the scroll jigs (or any other tooling) as and when you need them, otherwise you have loads of tools taking up valuable space, especially in smaller workshops, that you may never have the need to use, and your time could be better spent on something more useful to you as a learning experience.

Brian put a lot of information on this thread, and showed how the progressions and scrolls fit in different situations, I would suggest/guess they were not done straight off by calculated drawings, there are also no overall dimensions shown for what sizes the finished scrolls would fit into. ie the sizes of a square or rectangle that the C scroll fits into.

One item I found useful when initially making C or S scrolls to fit when in a built up configuration, is a square or rectangular shaped frame that I would drop the finished scroll into to ensure they all touched the sides in the same places, (if that makes sense) that way the collaring/tangential points were all in the same place which gives the symmetry and strength to the construction being made, this was particularly useful when building regulations/codes were a necessary consideration.

Don't get too bogged down with the "perfect scroll" if it looks right to your eye, then it usually is acceptable to most others.

Concentrate on getting one right and it gives you a good base to improve from, its a frustrating old game this blacksmithing lark, but basically very simple. Good luck with your development, look forward to your seein and hearing about your future efforts

[keithh999]

basically thats my problem....none of my scrolls look "right" to my eye. Im not a perfectionist by any means but to have the sweep and symetry is what i cant get in my scrolls. Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it and guess ill just keep hammering and swirling till i get something i can live with.

[John B]

basically thats my problem....none of my scrolls look "right" to my eye. Im not a perfectionist by any means but to have the sweep and symetry is what i cant get in my scrolls. Thanks for all the advice guys, I really appreciate it and guess ill just keep hammering and swirling till i get something i can live with.

Check out Brian's pics earlier in this thread which goes through forming the scroll end, download and print them out to give yourself a guide, then try to do the same, the key things to remember are, take a heat about one and a half to two times as long as what you are working on, in this case curling the end.

Start from the very end using small increments as you advance the curve. you are not forging the scroll end to the anvil corner, you are using the anvil's corner to act as a solid base to bend against as you form the scroll,

When you get to the stage the curl is starting to hit the side of the anvil, turn it up and tap it down to close up the scroll from the top as in the pics,

Reheat and put in back on thanvil with the curl down and pudh it forward agian and knock it back down to start another bend point, then flip back up onto the top of the anvil and form the curve you require.

A little at a time is advisable, and make sure the metal is hot where you are working on. Check it as you are going.

You will find you achieve a natural scroll/curve shape that is exclusive to yourself, and later on you may find it difficult to freeform scrolls to any other shape than this natural one.

You can also use scrolling tongs or forks to achieve the desired shape you want.

I am sure you will get there with a little perseverance,

If you have a group or someone who can advise you it would help, another valuable way to analyse what and where it is going wrong is if you have video facilities, just set iit to run and record what you are doing, then view it back, and you should be able to see where you are making mistakes, or it starts to go wrong.

[HWooldridge]

The golden mean is fine for a line drawing, but for a forged piece one needs to account for the thickness of the mat'l. This is were the "negative" space comes into play when making scrolls that look good. The golden formulas are a good starting point then tweak from there as needed.

You bring up a good point, which is that a scroll form can't be made from a scroll form, ad infinitum, without adjustment. If you have a nice scroll form and make a visually appealing scroll using that tool, then trying to make a third scroll using the second one as the form will not yield a good result.

[Randy]

I've asked smiths how are you making scrolls? They say, with scroll jigs. I ask, who made the jig? You can't make a good jig unless you can make a good scroll. The "trick" to getting that negative space to gradually open up is this: first your bending of the scroll is done over the edge of the anvil like Brian shows in the early photos. Notice that when you start it is a short heat and the piece is not far over the edge. The next heat is a little longer and the piece sticks a little farther over the edge. Following heats are each longer than the one before and you have more material over the edge of the anvil. This is what makes the progression of the negative space gradually opening. It takes practice but you can do it. It also helps to get either a good drawing of this type of scroll or a photo of a snails shell and draw it free hand. Try to do it in one motion of the hand. I like to use chalk as then I can erase it and do it again. Just draw a bunch of them until they are starting to look like what you want your scrolls to look like. Remember to focus on the negative space. Once this image is implanted in your brain the connection is made to do it three dimensionally in metal.

[Borntoolate]

I think.... That many times we over think things.

[ironclad]

thanks to brian and everyone who contributed to this post, have been trying to get collers and scrolls right for a while, this info is a great help! thanks again merry christmas and have a peaceful and happy new year.

[Borntoolate]

Hey, has anyone done any new Scrolls and collars to add to this post?

I'm just re-opening this one for visibility and to get it in front of anyone that may have missed it in the first place. Hopefully we'll get something new and sagely added on... :ph34r: