Black_Flame Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I dont really have any experience with metallurgy or blacksmithing ...(but I do have the equipment and the steel to cut out the shapes of blades)...but I had a question that I wish I could find out the answer to; What if you started out with a small fairly flat bar of... lets say 52100 Alloy Steel, coated with liquid 6150, air cooled it, coated it again with liquid 5160, again air-cooled it... and so on and so forth using different combinations of steels that are best suited for eachother until its satisfactory enough (maybe even 4150 or adding some type of ceramic powder to the mix ). Then later Folding out the steel a few times, forging the blade, annealing and heat-treating the blade then laminating it in silicide (or vise versa?)...maybe even cold rolling it somewhere in that big mess up there...could you somehow significantly improve the quality of the blade as opposed to just using traditional methods? I've never heard or read about anyone trying it this way before yet so many processes include "Dipping" metal into something that change the quality and characteristics of the steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I wonder about the logistics of all of that...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Why not just use powder metallurgy and HIP like they do to make the Sweedish Damas Steel? A technology already worked out and available. Another method would be to just take your bar to start and Arc weld it with the various alloys in rod form, again easier and cheaper. Note that elemental movement at high temps can be quite fast and so some of the alloying elements you are trying to layer will instead just distribute across the boundries. (others are quite slow and will stay put) I don't know of any blade making process where you dip it in something else to change it's properties save for quenching and that has nothing to do with changing the steel's content. (Two others:flux and case hardening, flux doesn't change the steel properties as much as keeps them from changing due to oxidation and case hardening isn't used for blades.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlotte Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 The only dipping process that I have read about is the near eastren version which dipped wrought iron plates in to molten cast iron. The effect was to create an imitation wootz steel billet. I know that investigators have reported the process but very little else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 I can think of a few problems right off me pointy: First, melting steel without the specialized equipment used by the pros will virtually guarantee it isn't going to be what you started with when you finish. Second, the layers aren't likely to weld only stick superficially. You'd have to have your billet to near welding temp when you dip it and that's not likely to end well. Third, assuming you can solve the first couple things are you going to keep several crucibles of molten steel on hand? I don't think letting the billet cool while you melt the next layer is going to work well at all. I think there's a problem keeping several different molten alloys in the same inert atmosphere together. Of course, this is just my unresearched opinion so I could be wrong. Of course if it works you'd have something truly unique even if it weren't a better product and different is a selling point. you could call it Candle Dip Damascus. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonjic Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 possibility that you could metal spray the layers onto a core bar?, Pretty sure that you would not be able to make a blade using a candle makers dipping techneque though ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 I dont really have any experience with metallurgy or blacksmithing ...(but I do have the equipment and the steel to cut out the shapes of blades)...but I had a question that I wish I could find out the answer to; What if you started out with a small fairly flat bar of... lets say 52100 Alloy Steel, coated with liquid 6150, air cooled it, coated it again with liquid 5160, again air-cooled it... and so on and so forth using different combinations of steels that are best suited for eachother until its satisfactory enough (maybe even 4150 or adding some type of ceramic powder to the mix ). Then later Folding out the steel a few times, forging the blade, annealing and heat-treating the blade then laminating it in silicide (or vise versa?)...maybe even cold rolling it somewhere in that big mess up there...could you somehow significantly improve the quality of the blade as opposed to just using traditional methods? I've never heard or read about anyone trying it this way before yet so many processes include "Dipping" metal into something that change the quality and characteristics of the steel. The only dipping I can think of is quenching...?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 have virgins blood? and a sacrered hammer, and of course the anvil of the ALMIGHTY???really youse. best read up before ya blow air here,jimmy seale live long and prosper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Jimmy: He was asking if it was possible. He wasn't claiming he had done it. The rest of us were speculating on things that might work. Spray deposition is done all the time though I don't know of anyone making knives this way. Powder damascus is also well known and common. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 There is so much that is possible if you are willing to spend several million dollars on equipment! Unfortunately most of them are no improvement and some of them will have even worse results. However someday someone with access to such equipment may surprise us all! (But we still won't be able to afford one of their blades...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 You are so right Thomas and I look on in wonder at such marvels. What makes me slap my head though are the things that are blindingly obvious that nobody thought of until someone who doesn't know any better says, "why not?" and takes a lash at it. One that stands out in my mind more than any other is the wind turbine driven boats like Calypso. A wind turbine drives a gear box that drives the propeller and it takes very little wind to make headway. Anyway, depositing layers of different steel on a core by dipping it like a candle may well be hopelessly difficult and far and a way too inefficient to be worth the effort. Then again I've been wrong sooooo many times . . . Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy seale Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 was not trying to discourage the lad...when and if i'm wrong i say so but a micron layer of metal will not work in this demention...so i will retract all my openions and such be well in your endeavers bol,jimmy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Whoa Jimmy! We don't want you to retract your opinions man. You're full of good insights and knowledge, taking them off the table won't help anyone. It just looked to me like you thought Black Flame was making another super sword stuck in a boulder claim. Your post reads pretty harsh. If I misread you the fault is mine. Stick around please. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 I must say that Jimmy's curtness is very well justified:In my opinion,you folks suffer the fools too gladly here(i include meself with the fools!).It serves very little educational purpose,and "it annoys the pig",besides. To preface something:"I don't know jack about N,but let's wag about it at great lengh anyway...",is,well... Micro-depositing of exotic alloys-carbides of Niobium,Berillium,and the like,IS done in the industry,consistently.It WOULD be quite interesting to hear about it from someone in the know. Even someone ignorant of the process,but sufficiently INTERESTED,can research something like this,and THEN report,would be cool.But,some WORK must be done,otherwise the spuriousness of it all just wastes the valuable time of the many attentive,thoughtful folks on here. Such is mine grumpy opinion,so there! Most respectfully,Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 I've just re-read each post in this thread and where exactly did the micro deposition idea come from? The original question was from a beginner asking if different alloys could be deposited on a core bar by dipping it in molten steel like making a candle. From someone without knowledge of the craft it isn't a bad question. The chances it would work outside a lab or purpose designed facility are remote and I think I said so in other words. Nobody. . . NOBODY made a claim to have done it. The question was, "WHAT IF?" If nobody ever asked what if? We'd be sitting in trees hiding from predators picking nits off each other, if we weren't extinct! Or are you questioning spray deposition? Do you think that's a myth? I'd refer you to All States Distributing who carries a full line of spray deposition torch attachments and metalizing powders. Unfortunately their web site if offline or I would've posted the link when spray deposition first came up. I tell you point blank and period spray deposition with a torch is not only possible, it's industry standard, common and entirely affordable for the small shop. How many times has it been said there are no dumb questions? Then when a genuine one comes up, the asker gets mocked. No matter how improbable the idea, the question was genuine and to belittle the questioner with such a sarcastic reply is really uncalled for. I've been reading Jimmy's posts for some time now and think his reply was really out of character. I believe he was just having a bad day. I sure hope so, I like Jimmy and would hate to think I've misread him to this extent. Heck Jake I've talked to former students of yours and they say you were patient to a fault. What happened? Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meinhoutexas Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 if i may? A first blush the orig. question is a sword in the stone type post. but if you really read it they are asking a pretty good question for the uninformed. how do we KNOW that it will not work? how do we KNOW only nicro fine overlay will ocur? untill some lab somplace has done it WHO are WE to say it CAnt be done?the thought of making bimetal sawblades as cheep as they are know someone asked CAN WE? befor the now near common induction forges some had to ask COULD WE? Now our job as blacksmiths is not to close minds and say no. but to teach and hope the next generation can do better than we have. Sorry just had to get that out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jake pogrebinsky Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 Thanks,Frosty,it's wise of you to put it all that way,and extremely tolerant.I've not much to say in my defense...Maybe it's sort of like this:The metallurgy,even the very basics,even the very primitive applied-in-the-forge basics,is VERY challenging,to say the least.Many struggle with it,myself,of course,included.The struggle can be conduvted in a way more,or less honest.I.e.,more or less actual effort invested in the attempt to comprehend,vs charging others with this responsibility,or,as it seems to me in this instance,to want to completely skip over the hard stuff into the (meaninglessly)complex. Maybe you guys are right,and snapping at a dreamer like that can potentially discourage some up and coming Giordano Bruno...Though,it seems to me,that old G.B.has paid his dues before indulging in some very far-fetched dreaming... That's what made me think in this way,is that someone who honestly tried to comprehend ye olde normalise/harden/draw routine(and,most importantly,the WHY of it all),wouldn't have asked that question,or would've phrased it differently. But,these are probably just excuses...I must be getting to be ill-tempered in my old age! I do apologise if i've tresspassed upon the common ethic of the forum here. All the very best,sincerely,Jake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitewatchman Posted August 16, 2009 Share Posted August 16, 2009 (edited) My company operates two Manganese Steel Foundries producing Railroad Frogs. We have two 10,000 pound furnaces and two 4,000 pound furnace capable of about 3000F. During tapping of the melts we bubble argon through the molten steel to floculate impurities and float them to the surface. These impurities, oxides and dirt are then skimmed off as slag by tilting the ladle and using steel tools shaped like rakes. The steel will indeed coat the rake with a thick coating of metal. Granted due to the nature of Manganese Steel we run very little superheat so the tendency of the manganese steel to melt the rake is reduced unless it is left in the melt for an entended period. The steel coating is NOT fused to the rake and can be knocked off. I supposed if you could exactly time the point at which the rake started to melt perhaps it would be fused in some areas but even if it were to be quickly plunged into the molten steel it would still have a slag coating from passing through the surface. As to candle dipping a bar I have no idea if this would work but it would be expensive to have a deep molted steel bath unless you were poducing many blades and since alloys are adjusted in the ladle and not the furnace maintaining heat could be very difficult. Speaking of Spraying Deposition, this is very common and I have a hand held unit I use in my home shop. The torch looks a little like a cutting torch with the cutting lever on the top. There is a socket on top that receives a bottle of metal powder. You use it like a cutting torch with the preheat used to raise the part surface temperature. When the lever is pressed the powder is sprayed throught the flame melted and blown against the part. It fuses and forms a coating that can be built up although I haven't have good luck with very thick coatings (1/8" to 1/4") since they can tend to flake or chip as the part cools. I have used spray deposition to build up worn shafts with mild steel powders which are machinable and lawn mower blades with carbide powder which is grindable only with Silicon Carbide "Green Wheels" and a vararity of material between these extremes. Seems like I learn about a new process or material almost every day. nitewatchman Edited August 17, 2009 by nitewatchman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Flame Posted September 3, 2009 Author Share Posted September 3, 2009 (edited) Hey, sorry it took so long to reply, I was out on vacation and my computer kept crashing everytime i tried to type something. Anyways thanks for replying to my question. I understand how some question can seem so rediculous at times, especially when you become really experienced at working with metal. It's just too bad that there arent enough people with the right tools around to hang out with and ask "what if" questions all the time. lol! but yes I know it would be very problematic to try it out let alone expensive and probably wouldnt work. I like that "Spray depositation" method though and that is something im going to have to look further into. Aside from all the other tools and equipment, all I really have in the garrage is a blow torch, a sledge hammer, a grinding wheel and a dremel. lol I would love to make a furnace but its not my garage XD I recently went out and bought some scrap T1 steel (its rusty and extremely hart to cut), 304 stainless steel and some plain mild steel for just cutting out a prototype sword. I know none of those are for making high quality cutting swords but its something to work on in the meantime. Its hard to even find 6150 or 52100 alloy steels so im pretty much dreaming lol. One of these days I'm going to save up and buy a whole bunch of machinary, make a slight profit from people who want to use that machinary and then try to blow it all on unsuccessful experiments lol Edited September 3, 2009 by Black_Flame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckster2.0 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 For thousands of years people have created swords. All of the best ones have come from trial and error. The techniques used by bladesmiths today are part of this history. The "what if question" is essential to making progress in bladesmithing today if we are ever going to make furthur progress in our craft. But it should be asked scientifically. Any experiment should be done scientifically. This means asking a question, making a hypothesis, testing the hypothesis and having a conclusion. This means that any "what if question" cannot truly be answered until the until proper testing has been completed. If you are asking whether you can make a damascus candle than be prepared for contraversy because it has never been done before. Until you do it you will never truly know. I myself have am a beginning bladesmith that has what if questions buzzing in my head such as "can I make an upside down hollow grind knife?" But I know that it has never been done before so I will try to make one so that I know definitively whether I can make an upside down knife. Suffice to say, experiment, experiment, experiment. Your failures and succeses will be greatly appreciated by future bladesmiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewbacca Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Is it possable that you could layer it in a crucible using minerals ground to powder if you give it enough layers of iron powder, veridiam, charcoal, dash of tungston, and ground glass on top? I think the glass is just to keep the carbon in the mix and the air out. If the powder is layered before melting will it create the apperence of layers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkrankow Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 Look up wootz and bulat (a Russian form of wootz) steel. I spent about a month of evenings chasing that and found a number of articles in html and pdf form, some including finished chemistry. I have a bookmark for one! Replication of Wootz I remember there being several others that I failed to bookmark. I decided it was too advanced for me right now, since I can't do anything with wootz once I get it. Have fun Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black_Flame Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 There are many interesting and unique methods to sword-steel making. I guess the question really is what secrets havent we unlocked yet and how can we combine all our knowledge to make the potentially best sword that we can. Right now all I have is a basic idea and enough money to take that idea, buy the steel thats allready been made by manufacturers and work away at it, grind it and polish it until that idea becomes a reality. Unfortunately I dont have the right tools or money to take those ideas to the next level or to make my own steel (which would be awesome). Eventually when I finish this stainless steel sword that I am working on (304 stainless steel I believe...which I know kinda sucks in terms of sharpness/toughness) I'll just upload it just to show everyone what type of swords I would be making if I had all the tools/equipment/money/time lol. I have a lot of ideas that keep popping out of my head and trust me, anything that I'm going to be making out of my drawings you wouldnt ever normally see in a store or even in a video game (and no the desighn doesnt necessairily compromise the strength in the blade...which i find a lot of people arent paying enough attention to these days). I even have a unique type of weapon all planned out that I'm planning on creating sometime before the year ends. It will be out of a fairly thick peice of stainless i bought (I know...again with the stainless lol) but I hope that my ideas drive some type of inspiration to people here or possibly even sword smiths in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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