Gas Forge Purchase Advice

[Avadon]

I'm trying to narrow down my options for purchase of a gas forge. I mostly want to use it for bladesmithing and making medieval weapons, halberds, pole-axes, tridents, war hammers, etc. Basically larger items then just knives and items with probably more mass then many swords. Might even be nice to be able to use the forge for general smithing as well. What is a good and versatile forge? When is 1,2,3 burners necessary? Is it absolutely necessary to have a hood if your forge is inside or will a strong draft with fans suffice?

These are some of the initial suggestions i've seen so far.

diamondbackironworks 2 or 3 Burner Blacksmith Forge

Chileforge Cayenne or Habanero

Ellis Custom Knifeworks Ellis 8 or 12-VT Forge

NC-Whisper Daddy #2 Forge with Open End Ports


What are peoples preferences above? Did I miss any that you would reccomend? When is it better to have the open ports on a forge? Thanks for any help you can offer.

[jimbob]

From what you said you want to do the Cayenne or the NC tools whisper Daddy with the opening on the ends I don't think the others will have a large enough opening for what your wanting to make

[Dragons lair]

Might check diamondbacks artist forge. Open at both ends and hinged door opens the entire front. (no corner posts) I have 2 and like them.
Ken

[HWooldridge]

I have no input on your list of choices plus I don't know what level of support machinery you have access to for fabrication - but you might seriously consider making one. They are pretty simple to build and relatively cheap in materials. I built a little single burner atmospheric forge in one afternoon, which is fine for points and small work up to 3/4 or so (although I admit I already had some leftover refractory from another job). A two burner box about 18Lx12wx5h would be a good overall size for the work you are describing. A door on both front and back would allow placing long or irregular stock into the box.

Just a thought...

[Iron Falcon 72]

Might check diamondbacks artist forge. Open at both ends and hinged door opens the entire front. (no corner posts) I have 2 and like them.
Ken

Are you able to forge weld consistently?

[Avadon]

Good advice, everyone! That artists forge is pretty impressive. I could see having a need at a certain point to have that door open to forge odd shaped items. Does it still heat considerably even exposed like that?

I can see how that side opening would be really handy, especially for doing armour, which I also have an interest in. I wonder how well that product sales because they are made to order and not in stock.

[HWooldridge]

Most won't weld with the door up but usually plenty hot for forging.

[Quenchcrack]

I have a DBIW 2 Burner Blacksmith forge and it is a mixed bag. It can get really hot although I have yet to take it to forge welding temperatures. To do so it is recommended that the gas pressure be 15-25 psi. This likely results in a pretty significant stinger out the front and back doors. I have taken it to 12 psi and burned off arm hair at a foot away. It will heat a lot of iron quickly, though. It is somewhat of a gas hog compared to my anemic 1-burner Whisper Baby forge. I am looking for an 1/8" ball valve to make my own valving system to shut down the burner between heats. DBIW will sell you one for $45 but that seems pretty pricey to me when the ball valve is under $10.

[Avadon]

I like DBIW stuff, its in the running, but so far I don't have any bias 'yet' one way or another in product. That said the politics that DBIW throws in your face on the main page is rather disconcerting. With so much politics, spin and opinion these days does it really need to be brought into our industry, let alone thrown in my face when i'm giving the guy $500-$600. It's a turn off for all except those who absolutely agree with his rhetoric. Ultimately political, philosophical, spiritual and religious opinions have no place in business. Business is about money, plain and simple.

I have my own business and my own opinions, but when people come to my company they want a great product and excellent customer service and that is what I give them, no more, no less. It can only become confrontational to lead your business with such beliefs and opinions. But hey it's a free-country, he can run his business how he wants. I just wonder how many $500 sales he can afford to lose. Sure some people will just look past it, others will not.

All that said, the Cayenne looks like one heck of an impressive blade making forge, even if odd or unusual sizes will not fit in it. To bad it doesn't have an opening on the side to hinge open like a grill, because that would be impressive. From what i've heard from others the lack of corners in round forges creates more even heating and less hot spots. Probably gives more overall convex heating.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Avadon

[Avadon]

I have a DBIW 2 Burner Blacksmith forge and it is a mixed bag. It can get really hot although I have yet to take it to forge welding temperatures. To do so it is recommended that the gas pressure be 15-25 psi. This likely results in a pretty significant stinger out the front and back doors. I have taken it to 12 psi and burned off arm hair at a foot away. It will heat a lot of iron quickly, though. It is somewhat of a gas hog compared to my anemic 1-burner Whisper Baby forge. I am looking for an 1/8" ball valve to make my own valving system to shut down the burner between heats. DBIW will sell you one for $45 but that seems pretty pricey to me when the ball valve is under $10.

How does one prevent those fiery stingers from shooting out when engineering forge designs? Do you, or anyone else know? :confused: (or is it just a necessary aspect)

[Quenchcrack]

Avadon, It appears to me that all the gasses that go in must come out. And they expand a bit upon heating. I think you simply need to provide a sufficient radius around the forge to make sure you don't set your pants on fire. If you restrict the flow of hot gas out of the forge, it will back up into the burner and either extinguish it or result in very erratic burning.

[Ted T]

I would also suggest that you read the information provided about the “The 2 Burner Metal Artist Forge”.
It says that “it is essentially the same as the Blacksmith Model, but with the 2 front corners removed and a wider front door.
This forge, just as the Blacksmith model will reach welding heat and is virtually maintenance free.
The advantage of this model is the ability to forge odd shaped or large pieces, as there is nothing to interfere with the placement of your work piece. Forge requires 20lb or larger.”
I am going to build one similar to this forge. In fact I have been acquiring the material for the past two years.
If I was just going to make knives, then I would not consider this design.
I have a need to place larger odd shaped pieces in my gas forges.
I currently have a home made single burner which I use quite often. It is handy and saves gas.
I also have a whisper Daddy II (three burner) which I love, but it is still not large enough (opening) for some of the projects I need to forge with a gas forge.
The answer is to buy one of each. Ohhh, I am sorry I lost my head!
Keep it safe and fun, and it will be fun!
Ted Throckmorton

[Avadon]

I would also suggest that you read the information provided about the

[saintjohnbarleycorn]

like suggested above, consider making you own. I am also in a situation where I want the forge to do more that is possible. So buy 50' of wool for $110, and make you own design to suit yourself. If you want you can buy or build burners. I plan to make several with one two or three burners, depending on what size I need and how portable. and make is so the burners are interchangeable. hope that helps.

[Frosty]

Here's my version of a do most anything forge.

Frosty

[looper567]

I have a DBIW 2 Burner Blacksmith forge and it is a mixed bag. It can get really hot although I have yet to take it to forge welding temperatures. To do so it is recommended that the gas pressure be 15-25 psi. This likely results in a pretty significant stinger out the front and back doors. I have taken it to 12 psi and burned off arm hair at a foot away. It will heat a lot of iron quickly, though. It is somewhat of a gas hog compared to my anemic 1-burner Whisper Baby forge. I am looking for an 1/8" ball valve to make my own valving system to shut down the burner between heats. DBIW will sell you one for $45 but that seems pretty pricey to me when the ball valve is under $10.

QC, just to be fair, the Ball Valve is only a single component of the Idler Valve. There is also a cost associated with the hose that's included along with the machine screws, washers, barrel bolt, set screws and steel (which has to be cut, punched, bent and machined), then there is the time to it takes to weld paint and assemble...

As for the Dragons Breath, it's a simple matter of what goes in, must come out. Actually, more comes out than goes in thanks to the expansion of the burnt gasses. The more the openings are restricted for heat retention, the higher the velocity of the escaping gasses will be. That's simply the trade-off for more efficiency. If the openings were larger, the escaping gas would exit the chamber in a more gentle fashion, but the heat loss would be greater.

[looper567]

I like DBIW stuff, its in the running, but so far I don't have any bias 'yet' one way or another in product. That said the politics that DBIW throws in your face on the main page is rather disconcerting. With so much politics, spin and opinion these days does it really need to be brought into our industry, let alone thrown in my face when i'm giving the guy $500-$600. It's a turn off for all except those who absolutely agree with his rhetoric. Ultimately political, philosophical, spiritual and religious opinions have no place in business. Business is about money, plain and simple.

I have my own business and my own opinions, but when people come to my company they want a great product and excellent customer service and that is what I give them, no more, no less. It can only become confrontational to lead your business with such beliefs and opinions. But hey it's a free-country, he can run his business how he wants. I just wonder how many $500 sales he can afford to lose. Sure some people will just look past it, others will not.

All that said, the Cayenne looks like one heck of an impressive blade making forge, even if odd or unusual sizes will not fit in it. To bad it doesn't have an opening on the side to hinge open like a grill, because that would be impressive. From what i've heard from others the lack of corners in round forges creates more even heating and less hot spots. Probably gives more overall convex heating.

To be honest, I don't look at Diamondback Ironworks as a "business", it is a large part of my life! Money, and the unrelenting pursuit of it, does not interest me in the least. Greed is just one of many factors which has caused the myriad of problems facing us today. I will not alter or ignore my values to gain a single penny, not now, not ever! As far a lost sales go, big deal... the simple fact is, the response has been overwhelmingly POSITIVE from everyone I have talked to, with 1 exception... the guy from CT who called and wasted my time to tell me I had lost his sale.
Americans have been silent for too long, and given the history of the last 50 years, things surely are not heading in a positive direction. The Criminals in DC have systematically torn down this once great nation, sent our jobs overseas, dumbed down our public schools and encouraged generations to become dependent on their hand-outs. Problem is, they have nothing to hand out unless it is stolen from those who work hard for it, or borrowed from somewhere only to saddle our children and grandchildren with an enormous burden in the future. I'm sorry, but to hell with shutting up for a buck, too many lemmings are already following that logic and chasing the money right over the edge of the cliff. I have a responsibility to my children and my grandchildren (God willing) to at least leave them with as much freedom and opportunity as I had when I was growing up, a $500 dollar sale doesn't seem to awfully important when viewed in that light...

Avadon, I don't mean to rant AT you, but merely explain why I do what I do. I respect your thoughts, but wanted to shed some light on my perspective... Edited May 27, 2009 by looper567

[oakwoodironworks]

looper567,
This dosen't have anything to do with the forge question, but that is a great cartoon you have posted at your website. Seems like some things never change and history repeats itself.
Mike

[Dragons lair]

Hey Dennis you left out one thing. Cost of the equipment to do the work.In my shop I hear it all the time. How come it costs so much for 10-15 minutes work. Its my time plus the gas,electric,ect Plus the 50 grand in equipment. Hope to scooter over one of these days.
Ken

[Avadon]

Looper, with all due respect, most people will not email you to let you know that something your doing has offended them to the point that you lost their sale. So you may have lost dozens of forge sales for all you know. Lost sales are something difficult for even large companies to know. So the idea that everyone but one guy in CT agrees with you is most likely fallacious.

Personally I just don't see what Politics has to do with forging and why you can't have your politics on your myspace or other website rather then the first thing people see on your site. It comes off to someone like me (and I would imagine to most) that your essentially saying I must agree with you in order to buy a forge. If I hypothetically disagreed with you I doubt you would back down and thus for most it would make a sale awkward. Ultimately though it your business and you can run it anyway you wish. My advice is to always separate such things (business from personal) but if you can afford to divide people through politics then by all means do what you wish. That is the beauty of this country, no one legislates what kind of rhetoric or propaganda you can promote through your business.

I need my sales to put food on the table and I personally believe it to be arrogant to throw my political opinions in peoples face when they want the product, not politics. If they wanted politics they'd go to CNN, not to my company. Just like I think it's very presuming to have heavily religious stuff on business webpages, but to each their own.

That said you sure have put a lot of care and concern into your product and it shows despite the politics. Best of luck with your business.

Currently i'm starting to lean toward the Cayenne Chili forge vs building one myself like most people suggest. I have all the ability to create it, just need some knowledge here and there during construction. With stuff like this though it often comes down to time vs money, that age old dilemma.

[looper567]

Oakwood, Ain't that the truth Brother!

DL, Scooter over anytime!

Avadon, I understand your position, but like I stated before, some things (too me at least) are far far far more important than $$$. I stopped playing the "game" years ago, I eliminated all debt and everything I have I paid cash for. What's mine is mine, and I don't owe anyone a darn thing. If people all stopped buying my products tomorrow, I won't have to worry about the repo men coming. I am content with what I earn, and my children are well fed. I may not drive a '09 Silverado, or live next to some yuppie in the latest trendy development, but that's the way I like it. My customers have been great, many stop in and visit. We compare handguns and swap hunting stories and I enjoy the brotherhood. What I want, and what is our responsibility to provide, is a world for our children that is as free and unencumbered as ours has been (or even more so), and that can't happen unless those concerned about the direction America has taken are willing to stand up, at every opportunity, and make their voices heard. Truth is, anyone who supports the idea of a bigger government, special rights for the "morally challenged" and bigger taxes on our backs to pay for our own destruction, I would rather not deal with anyways. What is happening here is nothing new, history constantly repeats itself, and every culture sees itself as somehow immune from its destructive effects. Fact is, there is no immunity. I, for one, do not wish to refer to my countrymen in the future as "comrade"...

That said, from what I understand, Chileforge builds a very nice product, I have not had the opportunity to use one, but have heard nothing but good things about David Starr and his products. I personally have a round unit in the shop right now, (and have played with the design for 5 years) and have tried many burner mounting variations, but at the end of the day, I have yet to see ANY noticeable difference in performance. With all things equal, same chamber volume, same orifice size and burner style, same surface area of the openings, they wind up doing the SAME thing and using the same amount of fuel doing it. It comes down to personal preference, I went with the rectangular shells simply for ease of use and maintenance for the customer. I can actually produce the round forges cheaper, but the rectangular shapes allows many different options, and makes chamber access and relining very easy.

[Avadon]

Well when people come to my business to shop I don't want to tell them what to think or to believe. I'm sure they are competent enough to figure it out for themselves. Besides i've always thought that offering political, religious, etc. opinions to others when it was not solicited is rather obnoxious. But we'll just have to suffice doing business our own different ways.

[Avadon]

Just thought i'd give a little update. After investigating several webpages and virtually every forge on the market I finally decided to go with Chiliforge.com with their Cayenne Model. Talked to Stacie at their company and she is extremely knowledgeable about their product. Their forges are lined with ceramic armor on the bottom and sides. Plus the burners can be operated one or two at a time and they also come with plugs if you want to decrease the opening on the ends. You can tell the guy who makes their forges has really thought through every little aspect and even imporved beyond what other forges have done. For instance their burners don't go shoot directly down which improves circulation and doesn't have the heat and combusted gases rising back up into the burner. They also have a regulator with their kit. I'm impressed!!

So when it comes to something wider I will just pull the super burners out of their forge and plug them into my custom wide forge for that specific use. This way I get the best of both worlds, the Cayenne for everday use and when I have a specific need i can plug them into my special forge. They even said that they would cut special shapes and help me however they can to build a custom forge. These guys are obviously hungry for sales and are willing to above and beyond for ever sale they make. I like that when I do business with someone. They also stand behind everything and will stay on the phone for as long as necessary to explain anything. I got their top of the line setup about $900 (shipping and some accessories included). Not to expensive for one of the top forges on the market.

[Quenchcrack]

Looper, I am not sure I really need the extra valve. I can run the forge at 5-10 psi and get the iron to forging heat quickly without draining the bottle. I may try to make a gasser forge weld this week, though, and will see how much pressure it takes to easily reach welding heat. I have to be honest about it; the idea of running that forge at 25 psi gives me the willies.

[looper567]

Like I said, from what I understand, Chileforge build a great product. The comments about slanted burners and gasses rising up the burner tubes is just incorrect though. I have built thousands of forges and have them in service worldwide (US, Canada, all of Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan and Israel). I have built dozens of configurations, round and square, and at the end of the day, in side by side comparison, there is virtually no difference when basic factors are similar. The gasses rising up the tubes is NOT a possibility unless someone built a forge with insanely restricted openings, and had a HUGE backpressure issue which FORCED the spent gasses up the burner tube, in which case the burners would FAIL to function, period. I've said it before, I'll say it again, at the end of the day, the Chileforge will do a fine job heating workpieces, but no better than ours will. Ours are turn key as well, with regulator, hose, fittings and instruction booklet. Ours also include the large front door for MUCH more versatility, and at a significantly lower price. We don't use Kaowool and ITC, which has to be constantly patched as well. Our vacuum formed ceramic liners have the same thermal properties, without ANY of the associated maintenance issues. I personally don't care who buys what forge, but I do like factual information being circulated, especially when our forges are included in the thread content...