looper567

Braedon, Great video, thanks! These little buggers get real hot, and they are a pretty simple, straightforward design. I was looking at making a model a little more affordable, since money seems to be getting harder to come by for most (except those snakes in D.C.) these days. Glad to see you are enjoying your purchase!

Ranger604, I just got back home last evening, I read and replied to your email this morning. KYBOY is correct, temps increase with fuel pressure, 7-8PSI is a forging heat in that model. Turn it up to 15PSI and see what you get, you can adjust it up or down from that point, depending on your results.

Robert, Before you dump a bunch more cash into this, give me a call (my number is on the contact page at www.diamondbackironworks.com). I am not trying to sell you a forge, I think we can get what you already have running properly without too much trouble. I'm in the shop usually from 8am to 5pm EST. Dennis

That's a great looking forge! Atmospheric forges can offer excellent performance as well, you need to be careful what you buy though. There are alot of people only too willing to separate you from your cash in exchange for junk. The problem is especially worse for those without any real knowledge of what makes a gas forge tick. I've seen so many bogus claims and outright lies by ebay sellers that nothing surprises me anymore. I stopped selling on ebay completely for about a year because our products got confused with some of that garbage, and didn't want the fallout tainting our forges... I personally prefer an atmospheric forge but there are advantages and disadvantages on both sides of the debate. Our "hobby" forge we offer from time to time is shown below. At 7PSI (.040 gas orifices) we are at 2204 degrees in about 5 minutes. Atmospheric forges can perform great, if they are built properly.

http://charlotte.craigslist.org/tls/1761738096.html He is in Pageland, SC. I understand he has dozens of Anvils, might be worth a shot to give him a call.

The Floor of the Forge is 3200 degree Dense Refractory, the wood stove bricks are NOT even close to the same material. The firebrick I recommend for putting between your forge and table is the common firebrick available at building supply warehouses. The brick for the Forge interior is a completely different animal though. The brick for the floor is available from us or from a Refractory supply house.

I'm not familiar with Don's burner but I assume it has some type of "choke" for the air intake. Try choking down the opening on the blower a little at a time while leaving your gas pressure alone. It sounds as if you have a "lean" mixture (too much air for the fuel being used). This is where a gate valve works really well as it gives you much more control over your Air/Fuel mixture. The more unburned oxygen present in the forge, the more scaling you will notice. When you make adjustments to your fuel pressure you will need to keep this in mind also. Another thing I have noticed is some of the A36 steels being sold now have a tendency to scale more than usual. I would imagine that is a result of bad chemistry in the material, as A36 uses alot of recycled stuff, with a unknown history.

kindrage, Every forge in the Diamondback Ironworks line-up will reach welding heat, so no matter if it's a single, double or triple burner, they will all get hotter than you'll ever need (heat is controlled by gas pressure). I say that because many think that the more burners you have, the hotter the forge will get, but fact is, our single burners get as hot as out 3 burner models. With that out of the way, the major consideration is the type of work you are doing and what you plan to do in the future. The Knifemaker models (1 and 2 burners) are just what they say, they are designed for Bladesmithing. They have small openings in each end to allow your stock to pass through, but with no front door they are very limited in what you can get inside. If all you're doing is blades, these are they way to go. The Blacksmith models (2 and 3 burners) offer a larger firebox, openings in each end for barstock to pass through and a large front door which allows greater access to the firebox. These forges are ideal for general blacksmithing and in fact, the 2 Burner Blacksmith is the forge I personally use for my ironwork, along with a single burner knifemaker for my blades. The Metal Artist model (2 burner) is even more versatile still, without the front corners it allows complete firebox access with the front door open, the drawback is the larger end openings are responsible for more heat loss, so it's gas usage is slightly higher than the Blacksmith models. The Metalsmith models (2 and 3 burners) offer an excellent compromise between access and efficiency. They are essentially a Metal Artist forge with end doors as well as a front door. With all doors closed the forge has stock ports in each end door for barstock to pass through. This allows the forge to maintain higher heats with less fuel use. When you need more access, any of the doors, or even all 3, can be opened, allowing you to get whatever you need into the firebox, wherever you need it. Again, it comes down to what you plan on doing, but I say for Bladesmithing, the 1 or 2 Burner Knifemaker is a great choice, it just depends on the length of blades you'll be working. For general Blacksmithing, the 2 Burner Blacksmith is an excellent choice. There are many choices out there in many different price ranges, but there isn't a (professionally manufactured, commercial quality) forge made in the US that ours won't run head to head with, so shop carefully. Even at the high end, our 3 Burner Metalsmith can be delivered anywhere in US for well under $700!

That's a very nice looking forge, I love the design! Nakedanvil, I just realized you're the KA75 guy, we had a KA75 in the last shop I worked at, 7 or so years ago... before I started my own shop. It was a fantastic striking hammer and a great companion to our self contained air hammer. Thanks for creating such a useful product.

Well said. Gas forges are not the most "efficient" appliances for sure. The key has always been to minimize unused space and restrict the openings as much as possible without causing too much back pressure. I have found though that lining material is also a critical factor. So I disagree on the Dense vs. Insulating Refractories. I have seen many dense lined forges which take forever to come up to temperature, while those lined with insulating refractories are ready to work in only a few minutes. Modern lightweight ceramics begin radiating back right away, and with only a dense floor with a small cross-section, your chamber is up to heat and ready to work in no time. I have taken forges lined with dense brick or dense castables, which had a hard time getting material to bright orange, relined them with modern lightweight refractories, and had them at welding heat using lower gas pressures. No changes to anything other than the liner... I've seen it many times. Not only greater temperatures from the insulating refractories, but the chambers are up to heat MUCH MUCH faster, and with lower gas pressures. With all things equal, 2 forges with the same liner material, and same burner configuration, the one with the properly tuned burner and smaller end openings will yield better performance. But to say there is very little difference in a dense liner and a modern insulating liner is, in my experience, incorrect. I have observed, time and time again, exactly the opposite... The Insulating refractories we use also allow us to maintain very consistent temperatures in the forge. This has been not only observed, but measured with our digital meters and thermocouples. I have identical forges in the shop right now, one with a dense liner and one with an insulating liner, and the performance is nowhere near close. Even switching the same burners between the forges, the dense lined forge can not come close to the potential of the insulated forge. The insulated forge does cool off quicker, but if I need to anneal, I can always bury a blade in vermiculite...

That "well known" forge maker has been peddling these Firebrick forges for quite some time. Although he states in his ads the the liner is, in fact, NOT firebrick, the fact is, it's just plain old dense firebrick. Dense Ceramic firebrick WILL NOT insulate, period. It has a very high thermal conductivity, which means heat passes through it quite efficiently. He had been touting that firebrick as the best things since sliced bread until we started selling on ebay, he has since started producing some forges with adequate insulation, but still offers those firebrick gas wasters. You want to get that forge to perform? Step one: Remove the dense firebrick (or "Steel mill furnace liner" as he calls it LOL) from the walls and ceiling and place it in the nearest trash can. Step two: Replace the dense firebrick with some Insulating Firebrick splits, preferably the 2600 deg variety. These are the white bricks, very light in weight and easily cut with a hacksaw. The splits will be 9" long x 4 1/2" wide x 1 1/4" thick. I believe Larry Zoeller sells these on his website. Step three: Close the forge back up and use a 1 1/8" holesaw to cut the holes through the ceiling for the burners. Step four: Don't believe ANYTHING someone says on the internet, especially if they are trying to profit from it! This should make a HUGE difference in the performance of that forge. An extra brick could be used to reduce the end opening size for even greater performance. This is the easiest and cheapest way to get some real performance. The IFB is the same size as the Dense Brick that is already in there, so it is a direct replacement. There are much better alternatives, but they will require modifications to the forge shell. If you really want to get the maximum performance out of it, a complete reline with quality materials will work wonders. If you are interested, call me at 704-948-7676. I ain't trying to sell you anything, but I can direct you to where you can get the materials and can offer advice on maximizing the potential of what you have.

I agree, no forge will do everything. The ribbon burners sound like a great option for some applications, I would love to see a set in action. Planning out your work is critical, you can do an amazing amount of work in a regular old gas forge if you think ahead. In the meantime, a cheap and easy solution being employed by Artists and Blacksmiths all over the country is to use a simple LP "weed burner" torch. Available for under $40 at Northern Tool, they run on propane, heat large areas quickly, and won't drain those expensive oxy/ac tanks! These are used by many people to fill that gap in versatility, and they do it on the cheap. It's not a perfect solution, but for many shops, it an outstanding option.

The point I was trying to make is, you cannot get separate distinctive "heat zones" in a forge by running burner #1 at Xpsi and burner #2 at Ypsi. The overall temperature is regulated by fuel pressure to all burners. More PSI=more BTUs which yields a greater interior temperature in the forging chamber. Another option is to simply heat your workpiece and then lightly quench the area you do not want heated. This works great for upsetting a specific section in the center of a long bar for example. If burning the end of a thin taper is a concern, the forge can be adjusted by lowering the pressure. You can effectively turn down the heat so that burning your work won't be a concern. It will take a little longer for the workpiece to "soak" in the chamber, but like everything else, it's a slight trade-off.

Sorry folks... I prefer to stay out of these discussions, but when my products are the topic, then I have a responsibility to clear the air. There are a lot of great forges on the market, and they all will make your iron orange, but I've worked hard the last several years to develop some pretty darn good forges. It irks me a bit when someone takes issue about what I have to say concerning the decline of western civilization here in the good 'ole USA, and turns it an excuse to offer opinions of my and my competitors products. It would be better if these opinions at least had the experience behind them to back up the "conclusions" drawn, but considering the admission that he received his forge only a few days ago, he has maybe a few hours experience with ONE forge to base his opinions on... He still believes I'm troubled by lost sales, I have explained before that money is not, nor has it ever been, my motivation. What troubles me is LOST FREEDOMS and an out of control Socialist Government. I appreciate accurate information much more. Take a look at EVERYTHING before you buy, including prices, and make an informed decision. Here's a taste of what is out there... Forgemaster NC Tool Chileforge Cliff Carroll MIghty Forge Swan Forge, from Ozark school of blacksmithingT Johnsonforge BTW, in spite of the exhaustive 1 1/2 months of research, this must have been overlooked. This will easily heat the center of pieces larger that 15! So the claim that NO ONE makes a forge that will do that, is incorrect... In fact, these are offered on ebay used for well under $1000 on a regular basis! I have nothing to hide. My products speak for themselves, as will the others offered if you take the time to look. They ALL have their advantages and disadvantages. EDIT I left out Larry Zoeller. If you want to construct your own forge, Larry has EVERYTHING you will need!

I will stand by exactly what I have said. I took NOTHING out of context and in fact linked to exactly what you had written, because I believe the folks here are intelligent enough to figure it out if they simply look for themselves. YOU are the one who took issue with what I had to say on my site. YOU are the one who decide to post here negatively about the way I run my business. YOU are beginning to give me a headache... Now go enjoy your Chileforge, I'm sure it's a great product, but please, until you get some experience using some of the many tools available out there, keep your "expert" opinions to yourself. "Researching" on the internet before purchasing your first gas forge does not qualify you as an expert...

"Regulating" heat by adjusting individual burners sounds great on paper, but in the real world is complete nonsense. The refractories used in the forge will not allow and real temperature "zones" to exist within a forge chamber, period. The refractories job is to radiate that heat evenly into the forging chamber. If one burner is running lower pressure, then the side of the forge that burner is on will draw more heat from the opposite side in an effort to regulate the heat distribution. This is the magic of modern refractories. There must be rather significant differences in pressure to get any measurable effect, but this is counter productive and reduces the forges efficiency. I've been there, done that, and measured the results with modern digital equipment, it just don't work in the real world...

With all due respect, a Diamondback Ironworks forge will do EVERYTHING a Chileforge will, and equally as well, at a much lower cost, period! Our Blacksmith models offer MUCH more versatility as well. Some of those here sounding the horn for the Chile as the "best" forge available have also stated, only a couple short weeks ago, that they needed to build an additional forge to accompany their Chileforge, because it was lacking in versatility... This same person was the one who took issue with my "rhetoric", so I wonder where the true motivation lies. That discussion took place here. Read for yourselves before taking any advise. Like I said, at the end of the day, the Chile will do nothing more than any Diamondback Ironworks forge will, in fact, because of the Chileforge design, they will do less. That's why my customers don't generally have to build an additional forge to make up for the shortcomings of their purchase. My customers also don't have to spend $1000 for a "top of the line" model that still won't serve all their needs... Question seems pretty easy, you just have to get by my gruff exterior, and if you don't like what you read on my website, just ignore it. Hell, if it bothers you that much, you can even go spend a grand of your hard earned cash on something that won't even do everything you need it too, that'll show me! Fact is, this is just an internet forum. Some here have a wealth of knowledge, some pretend too. I have built THOUSANDS of forges and have them in service WORLDWIDE. Before I opened Diamondback Ironworks, I made my living as a professional full time Blacksmith. I KNOW what the job requires, as I lived it daily. I've made every effort to produce the highest quality tools without breaking the banks of my customers. I have been on both ends of this spectrum, and am commenting from my life experience. I'm not saying Chileforge builds a bad product, not at all. From everything I've heard and seen, they build a fine forge, I could just never justify the price, knowing exactly what is involved in producing one... It's your dollar (for now anyway...), shop wisely!

It depends on the unit. The Knifemaker Forges are the most efficient in the lineup. The Blacksmith models will require more pressure and the Metal Artist will require the most. 15 PSI should do the trick with the Blacksmith Models, actually, 10 would probably do it, depending on conditions and your experience. Like with everything else, experience is the biggest factor. As far as the welding at 6PSI, I have spoken to many customers that weld in that range with the Knifemaker models. I actually had one customer call with the forge running in the background. The day after he received it he was welding Damascus at 6PSI and wanted to let me know how impressed he was with it. That said, I can't make a weld at 6PSI, but I don't have alot of experience forge welding, my background was Architectural Ironwork... I'm like a fish out of water with Damascus, but I'll get there! Until then, I'll rely on my trusty old 5160 for my blades!

I have used NC Tool, Forgemaster and Mankel forges professionally, and I have to say, the Mankel was the worst performing forge I have ever seen. Even with a brand new liner, which required actually cutting the forge apart to install, making it an all day headache, it still could not touch the Forgemaster or NC Tool units, not even close. It used massive amounts of fuel to deliver lack-luster results. People think those blown burners are efficient because of the lower pressures they run, but when you factor in the huge gas orifice size, fuel usage, even at lower pressures, is much greater. The Hypona Forges I would like to see run. there is nothing really new about that design. Those burners were developed and are still used by Valley Forge on their Quantum series forges. Only difference I see is the vents machined into the inlets at the forge shell. With the shell being insulated with plain old Kaowool, and using the lightly modified Quantum burners, I can not seem to fathom the 2/3 less fuel claim which defies all laws of physics. I wonder what the comparison is being made to? A forge of similar interior dimensions, with similar exhaust openings and insulation, running a standard type naturally aspirated burner, I would be willing to bet would be within a couple percent on the fuel usuage scale. I bet they were comparing it to a Mankel. Sorry, just my professional observation based on my first hand experience over the years.

Like I said, from what I understand, Chileforge build a great product. The comments about slanted burners and gasses rising up the burner tubes is just incorrect though. I have built thousands of forges and have them in service worldwide (US, Canada, all of Europe, Australia, NZ, Japan and Israel). I have built dozens of configurations, round and square, and at the end of the day, in side by side comparison, there is virtually no difference when basic factors are similar. The gasses rising up the tubes is NOT a possibility unless someone built a forge with insanely restricted openings, and had a HUGE backpressure issue which FORCED the spent gasses up the burner tube, in which case the burners would FAIL to function, period. I've said it before, I'll say it again, at the end of the day, the Chileforge will do a fine job heating workpieces, but no better than ours will. Ours are turn key as well, with regulator, hose, fittings and instruction booklet. Ours also include the large front door for MUCH more versatility, and at a significantly lower price. We don't use Kaowool and ITC, which has to be constantly patched as well. Our vacuum formed ceramic liners have the same thermal properties, without ANY of the associated maintenance issues. I personally don't care who buys what forge, but I do like factual information being circulated, especially when our forges are included in the thread content...

Oakwood, Ain't that the truth Brother! DL, Scooter over anytime! Avadon, I understand your position, but like I stated before, some things (too me at least) are far far far more important than $$$. I stopped playing the "game" years ago, I eliminated all debt and everything I have I paid cash for. What's mine is mine, and I don't owe anyone a darn thing. If people all stopped buying my products tomorrow, I won't have to worry about the repo men coming. I am content with what I earn, and my children are well fed. I may not drive a '09 Silverado, or live next to some yuppie in the latest trendy development, but that's the way I like it. My customers have been great, many stop in and visit. We compare handguns and swap hunting stories and I enjoy the brotherhood. What I want, and what is our responsibility to provide, is a world for our children that is as free and unencumbered as ours has been (or even more so), and that can't happen unless those concerned about the direction America has taken are willing to stand up, at every opportunity, and make their voices heard. Truth is, anyone who supports the idea of a bigger government, special rights for the "morally challenged" and bigger taxes on our backs to pay for our own destruction, I would rather not deal with anyways. What is happening here is nothing new, history constantly repeats itself, and every culture sees itself as somehow immune from its destructive effects. Fact is, there is no immunity. I, for one, do not wish to refer to my countrymen in the future as "comrade"... That said, from what I understand, Chileforge builds a very nice product, I have not had the opportunity to use one, but have heard nothing but good things about David Starr and his products. I personally have a round unit in the shop right now, (and have played with the design for 5 years) and have tried many burner mounting variations, but at the end of the day, I have yet to see ANY noticeable difference in performance. With all things equal, same chamber volume, same orifice size and burner style, same surface area of the openings, they wind up doing the SAME thing and using the same amount of fuel doing it. It comes down to personal preference, I went with the rectangular shells simply for ease of use and maintenance for the customer. I can actually produce the round forges cheaper, but the rectangular shapes allows many different options, and makes chamber access and relining very easy.

To be honest, I don't look at Diamondback Ironworks as a "business", it is a large part of my life! Money, and the unrelenting pursuit of it, does not interest me in the least. Greed is just one of many factors which has caused the myriad of problems facing us today. I will not alter or ignore my values to gain a single penny, not now, not ever! As far a lost sales go, big deal... the simple fact is, the response has been overwhelmingly POSITIVE from everyone I have talked to, with 1 exception... the guy from CT who called and wasted my time to tell me I had lost his sale. Americans have been silent for too long, and given the history of the last 50 years, things surely are not heading in a positive direction. The Criminals in DC have systematically torn down this once great nation, sent our jobs overseas, dumbed down our public schools and encouraged generations to become dependent on their hand-outs. Problem is, they have nothing to hand out unless it is stolen from those who work hard for it, or borrowed from somewhere only to saddle our children and grandchildren with an enormous burden in the future. I'm sorry, but to hell with shutting up for a buck, too many lemmings are already following that logic and chasing the money right over the edge of the cliff. I have a responsibility to my children and my grandchildren (God willing) to at least leave them with as much freedom and opportunity as I had when I was growing up, a $500 dollar sale doesn't seem to awfully important when viewed in that light... Avadon, I don't mean to rant AT you, but merely explain why I do what I do. I respect your thoughts, but wanted to shed some light on my perspective...

QC, just to be fair, the Ball Valve is only a single component of the Idler Valve. There is also a cost associated with the hose that's included along with the machine screws, washers, barrel bolt, set screws and steel (which has to be cut, punched, bent and machined), then there is the time to it takes to weld paint and assemble... As for the Dragons Breath, it's a simple matter of what goes in, must come out. Actually, more comes out than goes in thanks to the expansion of the burnt gasses. The more the openings are restricted for heat retention, the higher the velocity of the escaping gasses will be. That's simply the trade-off for more efficiency. If the openings were larger, the escaping gas would exit the chamber in a more gentle fashion, but the heat loss would be greater.

This is not me, but I stumbled across this ad on Craigslist. He is in Pageland, South Carolina... Anvils