Mikey98118

I think you need to either build a step nozzle, or reshape your tapered flame nozzle to the recomended 1:12 shape. It isn't a question of the flame being too poor. I don't like how hot the nozzle is getting out in the open air. I have visions of it melting down into a puddle inside a forge. The upside is that it gets so hot, you should be able to run it for a few minutes, shut off the burner, and forge it to the right shape, over a smaller pipe, easily. Also, Larry Zoeller Forge sells stainless steel tapered nozzles cheap. I don't know why all you guys are bothering to build your own!

Mine twitched back in 1999, when I went that rout. Safe and sane is always my first choice; and that means matching thread. Today, you can buy 1/4-27 taps cheaply from many sources; including eBay. At the time and place, they were a high priced special order for me through Tacoma Screw. So, I gritted my teeth and took a chance. It turned out that the moment of truth was anticlimactic; it was easy. That doesn't mean I'm recommending it; just defending in. Anyone can buy the right tap from eBay for $4...today.

Actually, a soft copper 1/4-27 thread will work in a 1/4-28 threaded steel hole.

What Thomas is telling you is, that for someone who knows quite a bit about burners, it is painfully obvious to him that you are completely clueless. He gave you two good options: Actually learn something about burner design; or work from a good known design. BTW, your flame nozzle is all wrong.

I spend a lot of time and money running down sad little facts like that, everytime I start designing a new burner or piece of equipment. The marketplace, whether downtown or online, never really improves; it just changes. One irritation or injustice goes away and something else takes its place.

Good; thank you for the input. I look forward to the information too.

Oh common, guys; I have been mulling this stuff over since 2006! Surely it's worth a reply.

I never used a door on a tube forge, in the past. But after seeing a few made by guys on this group, I would recommend them on most forges, now. Just about any enclosure you can dream up for the exhaust opening, to pass work through (including baffle walls), can also be worked into a door arrangement; this allows better access to the forge for oversize pieces, and for making repairs. That constitutes valuable added abilities for limited additional work; a bargain any time you can get it. Obviously, if it is such a potential asset on a tube, or "D" shaped forge, it must be considered mandatory on a box forge. A manufacturer may not use them because of structural considerations; some others may include poorly made doors on their forges for monetary considerations. Properly made, and insulated latching doors on front, one side and back of a box forge, is only reasonable for a forge you are building for yourself.

I never used a door on a forge, in the past. But after seeing a few made by guys on this group, I would recommend them on most forges, now. Just about any enclosure you can dream up for the exhaust opening, to pass work through (including baffle walls), can also be worked into a door arrangement; this allows better access to the forge for oversize pieces, and for making repairs. That constitutes valuable added abilities for limited additional work; a bargain any time you can get it.

Pipe threads are tapered, so that seals aren't hard to attain. MIG tip thread, and the matching female thread in a burner's gas tube or brass fitting, are parallel thread. They must be sealed with gas rated tape, gas rated pipe gunk, or a gasoline tolerant "thread locker." Yes, thread locker; there are two kinds; those intended to be permanent, and those intended to allow disassembly of the part (with some effort. I first started considering thread locker, after dealing with the black variety found on imported torches and burners. New torches can be unscrewed, with some effort, but on old torches, the parts might as well be brazed together. Kind of reminds me of different kinds of thread locker. And so, thread locker would be my first choice for use with a bad joint between fitting and MIG tip. Employ pipe goop on MIG tips? Pipe goop only requires the same extra care that gas rated Teflon tape demands, or in either case, we will end up with a mess inside the gas jet. Once we accept that stricture, I think it is not as likely as the tape to cause trouble. Once we accept pipe goop over Gas rated Teflon tape, thread locker isn't much of a leap, and is less inclinde to make a mess than the thiner greasy goop, yes? That should read "inclined"

Some aspects of MIG tip thread There are many manufacturers of MIG tips out there, and they use several different sizes of thread. So, what I do when designing a new burner, is make sure that I KNOW the thread size for a given tip. Next, I look up the particulars of that tip by reading all about it from a thread and tap chart online. Then, I double check what I think I know about the thread size, by getting out my micrometer and thread gauge, to make darn certain the tip matches up to what is called out in the chart, remembering that, while good charts include the allowed variances in major and minor thread diameters, not all of them do. A good chart will also include the recommended drill bit size for the thread, and that is what I use to select what part will make a workable gas pipe from Onlinemetals.com (my preferred online metal supplier). Furthermore, the challenge may not end there. Some tips, Like one of MK brand's series, may have thread (like 12-24) that may not match up perfectly with any stocked tubing, and then I have to take a chance that the nearest tube available, will suffice So, aren't we glad that Tweeco brand MIG tips dominated the market for so long, that tips with 1/4-27 thread are standard. And aren't we equally glad that 1/8" schedule #80 pipe nipples, which can be threaded with 1/4-27 or 1/4-28 thread from a $4 tap, work PERFECTLY in them, creating the best possible gas flow between tip and gas pipe. Of course "T" burners use a brass fitting that is also standard. But intrepid adventurers can always refer to the first paragraph; it shows how to succeed, while doing things the hard way. Some times, choosing the "easy" path of substituting a part that we can't get with a snap of our fingers, turns out to be a very hard way, indeed...

There is no mystery here. Pipe threads are tapered, so that seals aren't hard to attain. MIG tip thread, and the matching female thread in a burners gas tube or brass fitting, are parallel thread. They must be sealed with gas rated tape, gas rated pipe gunk, or a gasoline tolerant "thread locker." Yes, thread locker; there are two kinds; those intended to be permanent, and those intended to allow disassembly of the part (with some effort. I first started considering thread locker, after dealing with the black variety found on imported torches and burners. New torches can be unscrewed, with some effort, but on old torches, the parts might as well be brazed together. Kind of reminds me of different kinds of thread locker. And so, thread locker would be my first choice for use with a bad joint between fitting and MIG tip. Frosty, Why not employ pipe goop on MIG tips; it only needs the same extra care that gas rated Teflon tape demands, or in either case, we will end up with a mess inside the gas jet. Once we accept that stricture, I think it is not as likely as the tape to cause trouble.

Is there any chance that we can see a flame shot, either out in the air, or in the forge before its walls become incandescent? I think the before and after photos of the forge takes care of any lack of a" before" flame shot. The difference in the forge is pretty dramatic

That is quite a difference! It is true that we need to remember burners are just a part of forges. It has always been inevitable that Burners 101 and Forges 101 topics would start wandering into each other, because they are two facets of one subject; gas forges. But, could you tell us what changes you made to your burners, that made this change in your forge?

I don't think so; it would probably be a good idea to keep the flame low, untill the forge comes up to room temerarature, before running wide open, but I'm not aware of any special problems...

I have always preferred the tape over pipe gunk. I felt that both of them had the potential to make a mess in the gas jet, if I wasn't careful, and that the gunk could also make trouble because it left traces in the female thread of the gas pipe, after the MIG tip was removed; this in the face of several instances of shreds left in the pipe from the tape doing just that. I was mistaking my distaste for the potential lack of control inherent when using the gunk as best proof, in the face of of continuing evidence to the contrary. Care must be taken with either product, but the facts favor gunk over tape, despite my feelings on the matter.

Once again, you guys need to know that a hot running forge does not need a perfect burner, that is putting out a perfect flame; it just needs enough heat from the burner to allow the forge to work as a radiant oven. The burner is just one part of a successful forge. You don't need to "nock it out of the ballpard." you just need to get on base, and work from there. Dang, that should read "ballpark."

their are also Watchmaker's Pivot Broaches, that can be used to enlarge holes as mall as .013" that you can find online from several sources, starting with eBay. I'm awaiting my own order of them from eBay now, and will speak more to the subject, once I have the opportunity use them. A picture, they say, is worth a thousand words; that is certainly true of flame photos. the more photos you guys post of burner flames, the more we can help you out with what's wrong, and the greater the collection of answers about tuning problems (and what you are seeing when you look at a flame) can accumulate. It isn't just perfect flames that help out with understanding, tuning problems. And this subject has got to be the most intimidating that most of you fellas face. But as you can see from those three photos, the answer can be closer than you think.

The one caution I'll raise is, you need to keep a minimum height to complete combustion before a straight down aimed burner's flame impinges on the work; a burner with a softer flame, like a "T" makes a better match in a box shaped forge than a harder flame, as those burners put out; they would do better aimed on a tangent. take a little more time, to ensure your burners and forge go well together.

Agreed; you're doing just fine. I have thought, on several occasions, that I had burner tuning down pat; there is no such thing. Always, we we find refinements. Always, acceptations will prove to be new rules. However, once you strive, and achieve a goal. As you complete, and work with the forge, it will teach you more about burners. Trying to master everything about any one subject all at once reduces the returns on your efforts. Now stick that burner in a forge and learn a lot more about something else

Orange flames near a flame nozzle are usually a sign that the nozzle is being slowly oxidized away. You have a mild steel nozzle, and I can see scale on it; so, the orange streaks are not unexpected. You can even get orange streaks from using #304 stainless steel, instead of #316, you can cet orange streaks from failing to file off a small burr or ding in the nozzle's edge. I saw one orange streak marring a perfect flame on a "T" burner bcause of a tear in the ceramic blanket that was touching the burner nozzle. So, it wouldn't hurt to work on your nozzle more, but you basically have a very hot flame exiting that burner. Can you do a little bit better? Yes; do you need to? Probably not.

Exactly; decades of reading oxyacetylene and other boxy-fuel flames gave me a lot of background to learn from. But air-fuel flames are different, and I'm still learning new things about them.

Well, if I may add to your confusion; your burner's flame is hotter than his original burner's is. You can build burners EXACTLY according to the designer's plans, and have the right to demand expected results. Or, you can change them as seems right in your eyes, and hope for expected results. Or, you can spend eighteen years learning all you need to know, in order not to be surprised very often by results, like I did; these are your choices. what will it be? BTW, if you place an internal bevel on the threaded end of your flame nozzle, it should improve that burner's flame.

I think you have it in one. Perhaps use the construction strategy of a Diamondback forge, with these burners?

BTW, that flame is looking pretty good.