Mikey98118

It isn't surprising that no matter how much we know, there is always more to learn. What is surprising is that becoming expert at something can become a trap. Add a dollop of willfulness about what we "know", and the trap springs shut! What is known about burners should be held in an open palm, for all to see, and think about. I learn other people's truths here; they allow me to progress in directions I would never explore alone.

"T" burners are Frosty's design, and lots of people are building them, including the smaller sizes. So I will lay back and let Frosty and the gang comment on how to reconfigure and adjust this very worthwhile burner style. I have been waiting to see some lively discussions on where to find parts for smaller "T" burners, and possible trade-offs to build 1/2" and 3/8" burner sizes, on this thread. And don't forget that "T" burners have there own thread, if you can't find what you need here. Still, design issues go right to the heart of what this thread is for.

What constitute "easy to build" is different on miniature burners. the primary concern in larger burners is developing a really hot flame; tuning is a minor detail.The major problem with building a 3/8" or smaller burner, is that, starting at 1/2" sizes and increasingly as the sizes reduce, burners become touchier about construction details and tuning--every burner design does--while greater flame heat is almost a given. In miniature burners, an easy to construct design must include a large choice of key parts to choose from, and the maximum possible parts do be tuned. A tube burner gives the maximum amount of parts control, but It is not an easy design to construct. But wait; tuning is a pain in the six, so why would we want to complicate it further? Because not being able to fine tune a miniature burner, often means it won't run at all. After all the trouble put into its construction, a pain in the six beats out a totally busted six, every time! Linear burners are the easiest design for building in miniature sizes, because what is added to the mixing tube or pipe is only a reducer fitting, which probably has the largest amount of part choices of any pipe fitting; it is also the easiest fitting to make changes in by grinding. Linear is the smoothest burning turbulent burner design in the first place, and can now be made with all the controls of a tube burner. Choke control is usually absent, or at best crude on old linear burners. The ability to move the gas jet's distance to the mixing tube orifice has been absent in the past. A gas tube that is threaded into a saddle mounted on the reducer, allows both improvements, and with very fine tuning of them. A drilled saddle on a reducer fitting can be mounted so that the gas tube and jet, are easily positioned axially true at the same time.

What is a 1/8” IP thread? 1/8” IP or IPS (iron pipe, or iron pipe standard) thread dies and taps are used to make lamp rod thread (1/8-27) on the outside of 1/8” pipe (designated size; actual outside diameter of 1/8” pipe is .405”). This is parallel thread, and is not to be confused with the tapered 1/8” NPT (national pipe thread). Tapered thread is used on the ends of pipe nipples to mount your gas tight fitting or needle valve to. Be sure to use an "S" letter drill bit; not an "R" bit, which is recommended for tapered pipe thread; not for parallel lamp thread.

Oil has a lot more stored energy per given volume than propane; a fact that has caused many a guy to build an oil fired casting furnace. Others have been entranced by the lure of 'free' used motor and vegetable oil. But a higher energy fuel doesn't translate to higher flame temperatures; just giant carbon loaded flames shooting out of the furnace, in a barely controlled fashion. And using free oil has turned out to be like free fire wood; a great sounding idea that doesn't work out all that great in the end. Bottom line: there's still no free lunch.

Chapter 2 is meant to be a resource, where the reader can go to get back up information before deciding what fittings or hose to use, or why the burners are built the way they are; not something to be waded through with dogged determination There are people selling good burners: Chile Forge builds Mikey burners, but only in one size. Hybrid Burners.com sells very good burners in a variety of sizes. Larry Zoeller Forge sells his "Z" burners, and also kits for them; they have a good reputation. There are probably others, but I don't know who they are. I do know there are lots of people seller bad burners out there. Yes, that is sadly true. All of the well known commercial forge brands refuse to update their technology; it's enough to make a guy think they're just in it for the money...the only one of them with high customer satisfaction is Diamondback. I figure the others are trusting in the general ignorance of their customer base to get by. With companies like Chili Forge coming on line, I think their number well be up pretty soon.

Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns has an entire chapter showing you how to build a forge from a five gallon propane cylinder, including how and why to position your burner. You can find a pirated copy online for no money.

Look through Forges 101 thread, and see your answer there.

You won't find the data you need here. but, if you input oil burning casting furnaces, you will run across a lot of information that you can use to start asking your own question. The answer will end up being no, no, NO! But this way you can settle the question for yourself

Making Oz burners Both designs are linear burners, with concentric reducer fittings, and that is where all common ground with an Oz and a Riel burner ends. In the first place Oz burners use a larger reducer. Try for 3:1 ratio for the inside dimensions; if you can't get close (within a 1/4") to them, go with a larger Ratio--not smaller. Most guys aren't willing to grind away the internal thread, and turn that whole area into an inside bevel, but if you do, the additional work will produce additional benefits. Its handy that the saddle can be removed, and the bevel ground later on. The gas pipe is one-half of a 6" long schedule #80 1/8" pipe nipple (McMaster Carr online catalog), so it's wall is thick enough to tap 1/4-27 or 1/4-28 machine screw thread inside the cut end, for a Tweco style MIG contact tip; this now becomes the burner's inline gas tube, with an inline gas jet, which is the only way to make a powerful homemade burner. The other end, which still has a 1/8" tapered pipe thread, ends up connecting to the fuel gas source. Note: This design needs no drill press. A 3/8" hand drill is fine; or a 1/4"drill, with a step bit will work. 1/8" IPS (Iron Pipe Straight) thread (AKA lamp thread), dies for which can be had from eBay and other online sources, are then run as far down the outside of the gas pipe, from the cut end containing the MIG tip, as you need. A flat bar (width determined by size of reducer fitting, but make it wider than you think it needs), is bent into a "U" shaped bracket, which I call a saddle for reasons that will become clear; it should fit over the large opening of the reducer, without slop. Drill two small holes for machine screws, in each open end of the flat bar, and one hole in the center of this saddle; thread the center hole with a 1/8" IPS tap, and assemble the MIG tip, gas tube and saddle ("U" bracket), with its open ends facing the MIG tip. Place the gas assembly, saddle down, on on the reducer, and screw the gas tube into the reducer until its end is protruding out of fitting's small hole. Choose whatever method you like to make a centering spacer, wood, tape, or drill a plug fitting; it really doesn't matter. What you now have is all the parts that need to line up, perfectly in line for drilling the four small screw holes; with any care used at all, this is now a slam dunk. Nine diameter rule of thumb applies to this burner series. Yes, these burners have a fast enough mixture flow to support stepped flame nozzles. Gas orifice sizes are the same ones I always use. Because the gas tube has outside threading, you can also cut out aluminum plate with a hole saw, to make a choke, and thread it, to screw back and forth on the gas tube. If your gas tube ends up with a loose fit in the saddle buy a lamp nut in the lamp area of you hardware store, to act as a locking nut. So, why bother building this burner? (1) There is no easier burner to construct, with dead center aiming. (2) It is a powerful, and trouble free design. (3) Its choke can be exactly positioned, or closed tight against chimney effects, with a flick of the finger. (4) I think, that the burner's extra wide saddle forces incoming air to begin swirling sooner than would otherwise happen in the reducer fitting; I base this personal belief on observations of several burner designs, which run hotter than I can otherwise account for. Why call them Oz burners? Linear style homemade gas burners seem to have first appeared in Australia, before we Yanks copied them, And it was while looking at an Aussie interpretation of an English burner that the idea of a simple bent saddle to hold the parts together came to me. So, since they have had so much influence on our gas burners, its time they cot a little credit. Plus, ticked off would-be makers can have fun calling them Odd burners, while banging them on a handy hard surface; its only fair

May we have page 26 please?

I have seen everything from quit good to bad information about forges on YouTube. Unfortunately burners there, mostly run the gamut from hilarious to outright dreadful. that should have read "quite" not quit. If you want to play around with axes, try looking into buying or building an oval forge.

Understand, that it's not my place to attempt to tell people what they should do; just to explain the obstacle course. Let not One Hang Low

You will find that question answered in chapter Six: Fuilding a Fforge Cart. The solution is twenty-five feet of THE RIGHT gas hose, and some additional fittings built into the cart. Yes, I did read your question carefully, but the answer is that there is no LEGAL way to do have a fuel tank within twenty feet of hot work, unless it is on the other side of a wall. And yes, I am a well known picky butt. But, picture yourself standing on the street looking at the blackened ruin of what was once your garage (been there; done that). We will skip over how the fire started, and the smirks on the firemen, your neighbors, passers by, yada, yada. The next thing coming up is a visit from your insurance adjuster. His job is to save his company money wherever he can. Break safety laws, and you just made his job very easy. All of the sudden, those pesky safety rules you didn't care about become real important!!! Did I mention that this is the voice of sad experience? And what follows the insurance inspector? Explaining more bad news to your wife... So, how come gas barbecues have five gallon fuel cylinders built in? Because hey are grandfathered in; otherwise, the practice would be outlawed. You may rest assured that such an arrangement on a forge is ILLEGAL Is that a crummy deal? Yes; it's also the way things are. Lots of guys won't tolerate female ways; the 'smartest' of them wise up after their fifth or sixth marriage. Then there are a few weak sister types that only need to tie the knot once. Of course, the logical place to position a tank is underneath the forge. And I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some lazy guys who built my forge cart never bothered moving that tank when running the forge (naughty, naughty). It is only coincidence that the cart's top provides all the thermal protection that tank could possibly need. I would never consider breaking the law, but cannot control what others do. Have a nice day, and be smart, be legal.

There is a way to get enough time; its called retirement. My advice is to put it off as long as you can.

Yes, that is true. On the other hand, reducing the width of these openings helps smooth out the flame; as so often the case, it is a question of balance. You can make these burners do a whole lot more than just burn hot. It is possible to sculpt the flame as you please, by continuing on along the road you're on. You mentioned wanting to shorten the burners, If you insert internal fines at the front end of the mixing tube, the flame of a burner with more swirl can be smoothed down that way too, allowing the mixing tube length to be shortened. I don't bother with such tricks, as people already think my burners are too complicated. But, if you want to improve them, there is still plenty of room left to do so. That should have read "fins"; not "fines."

I am no expert on anvils, and they are really off topic on this group, but...the last thing you want ringing out in a hosing tract, is a first rate anvil!!! There are several alternatives for falling into that TRAP, as well as numerous advice about how to live with it, once you do. My advice is to make sure you don't gp tjere, in the first place. Contact me off group, and we can continue this discussion without rustling a lot of feathers.

It sounds to me as if you are doing fine. Flame photos are always a help, though

Two different conversations here. In the first place, there isn't a single burner in my book that doesn't have way more area than 40% larger than the burner's internal cross section; they were figured out to be generously larger than that minimum, and then were lengthened to provide other benefits when engaging the sliding choke. Perhaps I should have stated that the total width of the openings would not change. Sating that the total area would not change is also correct, but possibly confusing for you?

The guaranteed way is add up the total width of all the air openings on a given burner, divide by three, and you will keep the area at a proven value. Your burner will still improve structurally, because the the width of the ribs between those openings will increase strength a lot. The burner will gain improved performance, a litlle, because the wider openings improve airflow; it was to deliberately back off performance that I chose all those extra ribs, back then. After many years, and thousands of burners built all over the world, I now realize I was being paranoid. And since they were the hottest burners around, I figured to get by with it. That was then, and this is now. The choke is supposed to slide forward from the rear of the burner, to give a smooth increse in air flow.

I--yes even I--make mistakes; what do you expect from a guy on the phone? He is wrong, and I is right Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, & Kilns cost me four years to prepare and write...and it has typos.The first copy had two outright errors (gasp!). What it did not contain was obfuscations, and double talk. If you could be trust me for 206 pages, choose my version of "the facts" now; your friend will be oh so glad you did.

Hi Victor. Okay, in 3/4"Mikey burners, a tip for .023" welding wire is given as being a little bit under sized, and a tip for .030" wire is given as being a little bit oversized, with the gentle hint that those desiring perfect performance (at sea level) can get it by enlarging the smaller tip a few thousandths of an inch with a set torch tip cleaners. At 9,800 feet he will probably just want the smaller tip. A smaller gas orifice will ALWAYS draw more air per volume of gas, and therefore the burner will burn leaner, than with a larger orifice. At high altitude the burner needs more of that thin air; otherwise it will burn rich; so, leaner is better. I believe the smaller air entrancea I recommended were on a 3/8" burner, which is not in the book; it is being perfected. Miniature burners--of all designs--have a strong tendency to run hotter than their larger brethren. That particular burner runs so wild, you want to get out the whip and changes! So, please don't take that to mean that smaller air entrances are necessarily better on all my burners, 'cause it just ain't so. On the other hand, three openings, adding up to the same amount of square inches overall as were originally recommended, is always better than more openings. Before you ask; yes I know it back when I was writing the Gas Burners; I was just being overcautious, way back then. Why then shuld smaller be hotter? It's not. However, smaller need mush more exact size match-ups between parts. So, after we through out the weak combinations, which we're not about to put up with, we are stuck trying to "tame the tiger". Its ia just a natural progression That Mikey

You read it right. After coming across nothing but positive reviews from long time owners (Actually some of them where down right smug!), I ran across a YouTube video showing an owner relining his old single burner model, and understood why owners give rave reviews about how easy it is to maintain. I was impressed by what I saw. This forge can be improved with a heat reflecting coating, which is an add-on item. The burner is good enoughto give the forge all the heat it needs. And the construction is rugged.

Yes, because lower temperatures can be attained by aiming the torches I don't recommend at a hole; on the other hand, such a forge can be run with a 1/2" "T" burner; at present this is the easiest burner to construct, and you can also find lots of help in constructing on right on this group. Now, aren't you glad you asked that question

3000 F rated high alumina kiln shelves are much tougher than high alumina refractory, because they are baked at very high temperatures for long periods, just to make them tough. This is why I prefer them for any forge area likely to be impinged by burner flame; never had any cracking with one of them. That said, I have never had a crack in a casting furnace hot face made with Kast-O-lite 30 either. Still, I think that 1/4" thick refractory walls would be pushing the bounds of good sense.