Modern Day Blacksmith

[Rob G]

What is the modern day blacksmith, machinist, welder, or?

I know you could say the blacksmith is still very much in the modern day however this is looking at it in the light of- there must be more than two dozen shops employing machinists and welder in my city alone, but there is not a forge employing smiths in the whole state.

What do you think and why?

[irnsrgn]

All 3, the idea is to make money, forging type smithing is to slow and labor intensive most of the time, and thus more expensive. I know I retired as a one man smith shop in 2006 because of an injury to my back, 55+ years was enough anyway.

[element]

Most of what a blacksmith made before is just stamped out by robots i suppose. Of course a blacksmith can turn out a better product but the mass of the population dont want to pay premium price. I think its more a hobby for most people because you cant make a lot of money if you dont have all the top notch equipment to churn out products faster than humanly possible. Todays time frame is much faster than 100 years ago, everything must move quickly or you start to loose money fast.

[mike-hr]

Open Die forging is something that's learned by doing. I can't see hiring anyone to train, I'd have to pay them an hourly, plus take time out of what I'm doing to watch herd. The shop would be losing money as soon as the new guy clocked in. There's also a raft of paperwork and regulations when dealing with employees. As a sole proprietor, I can run my 1907 power hammer all I want, but the state safety bureau would have kittens if they were to try and dumb it down for an untrained hand. I would have to add on a rest room to the shop, it won't do to ask employees to walk 50 feet into my house. My work is often Boom-or-Bust, I'm often backed up for a couple months, and then nothing. It takes a business man to run a business, I'd rather be a one guy shop with no stress, and be able to take my kid fishing after school when the lake thaws and there's no wind.

[Iron Falcon 72]

It takes a business man to run a business, I'd rather be a one guy shop with no stress, and be able to take my kid fishing after school when the lake thaws and there's no wind.

I'd say you have a lucky kid!

[chyancarrek]

Most fab shops have some method of cold bending material to produce scrolls and any number of other shapes. The fact that a hammer never touched the material goes right by the client without any notice.

They also can order any number of machine-made "forged" elements to include into their work to give the look of smith produced items. It doesn't make business sense to have an actual smith on the books.

[David Einhorn]

I would have to agree that most potential customers don't care if the item touched a fire or was quality made. There are some exceptions, but how many people really want to afford something that was hand crafted. One of the local smiths started out as a purist, doing everything the traditional way. Over time he lowered his standards so that now he has metal laser-cut for him in bulk, then hits it just enough times with a hammer to say that it was forged (his description not mine).

Also, 20 years ago, a skilled smith could make a living at blacksmithing because there were so few people doing blacksmithing. Now it is difficult to drive down the streets in my area without passing near a blacksmithing shop or three.

[devon blacksmith]

I think it depends on what you make and the type of gear you have some things are quicker to forge than forge/fab, IE if it is hot from forging then it is quicker to punch a hole than to let cool down and drill or if you are at the forge making parts that nead to be welded then it is likely that fire welding would be quicker than welding (mig or stick etc) then grinding.you have to work quickly to make any money in any case, if you choose your customers correctly with targeted marketing you can choose the type of work you do and therefore the type of machines to use or not. here in the UK there is a growing market for quality work that lasts and dose what it sez on the tin.

[Rob G]

i think the modern day blacksmith is the machinist because it is making and repairing tools and parts. plus a machinist works more in the metal, changing the material in shape and size, much the way a blacksmith would.

[Neal L]

I'm in the process of making a handrail with balisters for one door of my house. My wife doesn't have the patience to wait for me to make all of the pieces so the scrolls are from King. So although I have the skill but not much time I'm getting the same look but a lot faster and lots cheaper if I figure in my time. The hand made stuff would be more for the high end client that wants to know someting was hand made. The average person I'm sad to say don't know the difference and dont really care.

[dablacksmith]

well the modern day equivalent to a blacksmith is 3 things ... machineist ,fabricator /welder, and mechanic... and they started divergeing during the industrial revolution.....nowadays i concider a blacksmith to be a form of artist..... a practical artist i think... for most of us make practical goods that are also pleasing to the eye and touch ....thats my 2 cents worth

[matt87]

Don't forget also the trades like farriery, bladesmithing/cutler, traditional gunsmithing where blacksmithing skills are still used. Rarely in history was a blacksmith truly a Jack-of-All-Trades, they tended to specialise; a 19th-century smith in New York City, Paris, London on Berlin might have shod horses but was unlikely to have built carriages from scratch, just as a carriage-maker would have been unlikely to make a rock drill. Even the backwoods smith in the Appalachians, who might have fixed a cart, forged an axe, shod a horse or built a gun on any given day bought-in flint (gun) locks.

Blacksmithing is a a skill-set, and many of those skills are still used in industry.

[David Einhorn]

I guess it depends how you look at the definition and use of words. To me, blacksmith means that someone is first of all working with black metal, ie iron/steel, and is smithing which means hitting, preferrably when hot. At least that is what it meant for hundreds of years. Tinsmiths, whitesmiths, coppersmiths also hit and shape metal. If I understand correctly, then your definition includes *anyone* who works with metal including Tinsmiths, goldsmiths, silversmiths, tinkers, whitesmiths, and coppersmiths.

Personally, I believe that communication is more precise and more efficient if people are referred to by terms that refer to both the material they work with and the method they use such as hot "smithing" or by stock removal such as machinists.

Otherwise we might as well refer to all our tools as generic "thingys" and all people who work in any metal as "metalworky folks"..... as in "Hey metalworky guy could you hand me the thingy from the pile of thingys over there?" ;-)

i think the modern day blacksmith is the machinist because it is making and repairing tools and parts. plus a machinist works more in the metal, changing the material in shape and size, much the way a blacksmith would.

Edited February 6, 2009 by UnicornForge

[Rob G]

this is wild because i've only recieved one reply out of 12 that replies to the topic relative to the way it was asked

and i never stated a definition of blacksmith....

[kevan]

Open Die forging is something that's learned by doing. I can't see hiring anyone to train, I'd have to pay them an hourly, plus take time out of what I'm doing to watch herd. The shop would be losing money as soon as the new guy clocked in. There's also a raft of paperwork and regulations when dealing with employees. As a sole proprietor, I can run my 1907 power hammer all I want, but the state safety bureau would have kittens if they were to try and dumb it down for an untrained hand. I would have to add on a rest room to the shop, it won't do to ask employees to walk 50 feet into my house. My work is often Boom-or-Bust, I'm often backed up for a couple months, and then nothing. It takes a business man to run a business, I'd rather be a one guy shop with no stress, and be able to take my kid fishing after school when the lake thaws and there's no wind.

Now if ever the truth was said better or more simply, I have not seen or heard it said. Mike-hr has summed up the situation so succintly that the matter requires no further discussion. Furthermore, what he has described applies all over the world and not only in the States. I know, I'm in South Africa and EXACTLY the same comments apply.

Regards,

Kevan

[David Einhorn]

i think the modern day blacksmith is the machinist because it is making and repairing tools and parts. plus a machinist works more in the metal, changing the material in shape and size, much the way a blacksmith would.

My apologies, that sounded like a definition to me.

[Rob G]

those are just things that relate machining to blacksmithing. why would i be talking about tinsmiths, goldsmiths, silversmiths, tinkers, whitesmiths, and coppersmiths on a blacksmithing forum in a thread titled modern day blacksmithing. this is retarded. i quit.

[mtforge]

What is the modern day blacksmith, machinist, welder, or?

I know you could say the blacksmith is still very much in the modern day however this is looking at it in the light of- there must be more than two dozen shops employing machinists and welder in my city alone, but there is not a forge employing smiths in the whole state.

What do you think and why?

Someone who hits/works black metal(iron)

What state do you live in? If you were in my state You wouldn't find my business/forge in the yellow pages but I'm still here. I'm a full time blacksmith with a lot of demand for my products. I don't do many custom orders just my own line of items that I like to make. Yes, a modern blacksmith can find customers who appreciate the forged product. It's like other businesses you find a need and you fill it. I don't expect people to pay $50 for an s-hook just because I made it. But you can definitely compete with imports. Just don't go head to head with Wally world on shepard crooks, find your own niche. I've had two daughters working for me during their college breaks. I taught them to forge, fabricate, weld, machine, etc. and do it without me looking over their shoulder. You learn to work efficiently and effectively just like other successful companies.

[element]

Rob i think your question was answered fully more than once so refrase your question because we dont seem to understand. A blacksmith nowadays does nearly the same thing the blacksmiths did 100 years ago. Look at the old books, Almost nothing has changed.

[element]

I wish Uri would reply this thread because he is the perfect example of a modern day blacksmith, Hes succesfull and known around the world and if hes not a modern day blacksmith then i have no idea who is...

[Ten Hammers]

I can give one reason for the lack of a forge employing a smith. The industrial revolution(s) of the US and world advanced to the point of no longer needing horses for agriculture. The production of food. The US and Canada alone were responsable for much of this technological advance. I do not wish to make slight of any other part of the world because Europe, Australia, South America and Africa all played a part. Look at mining, logging and transportation.

In ONE particular instance ( electricity ) the smith either advanced or lost out. TIME was in many events the issue. The electric welder ( post WW2) in my area gave one man the ability to fix farm machinery ON THE FARM. I have my Great Uncles welder (bought new 1946). I also have the post drill he used. Repairs and building of new equipment ( sheep feeder, gates etc) could now be done at home saving the 5 mile trip to the closest smith. Knowledge and experience dictated the needs of the issue. The closest smith in this instance bought a newer welder in the late 50's and in the 60's bought a motor driven welder as well. NOW the shop could be taken to the field ( welder and torch ). Many towns in rural America had power by the teens. Of course the railroads played a major part as did advancements in aviation.

A couple hundred miles west of me, Juniors Grandad, Dad and uncles were very much a part of this advancement in technology. Even after the horses were gone, AG still played a major role in the continuation of the smiths trade ( plow work ). I have not even mentioned oxyfuel welding and brazing. Hydraulics alone made it possable to straighten (cold) many things. Visiting Juniors shop and home takes me back to my youth.

I might also add that World Wars alone may have led to more advancements in technology than many things.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Ten Hammers

[TASMITH]

Although not generally known to the public, there are still many 'Blacksmiths' working in the industrial sector.I believe that there are probably a good deal more of them working in European countries than there are in the Americas, but they are still working here as well. They have a Blacksmith shop at (formerly Algoma Steel), not sure of current name, in Sault Ste Marie On. Also I believe that (Stelco?) in Hamilton, On, Canada still has a shop as well. They have large power hammers and still do traditional blacksmithing even today. Most of the forging done is on a LARGE scale but still using traditional means. Up until three years ago, when my plant closed, I was working as a Blacksmith. I had a forge furnace, power hammer, anvil and blacksmith vice which were my tools of the trade. I have worked for twenty-seven years as an industrial Blacksmith, with the only difference between then and now is the size of the steel I work with. The techniques have remained the same as they have for hundreds of years with the only difference being that with advances in technology it has made the work easier to accomplish. therefore I believe that you could say the 'Modern Blacksmith' is no different than his counter-part of two hundred years ago with the exception that modern tools have just made his job a little easier.

Terry

[Leland]

Hey, Terry:

You've desribed yourself as an "industrial blacksmith," using traditional techniques in a modern setting. I'm curious - what is it you forged?

My reason for asking is that I suspect "scale" factored into your employment as an industrial smith, inversely as it factored into the demise of smithing in other sectors.

Blacksmiths were phased out of employment because machinery supplanted their labour-intensive efforts; the only reason for continuing hand-craft trades is the higher cost, difficulty, or highly-specialised-but-low-demand of creating a particular product or action with a mechanised counterpart. (Examples are seen in other fields, especially if one watches WAY too much of the 'Discovery' channel: Oysters are shucked by hand, for example.)

It would probably be a safe bet to say that you were forging highly-specialised pieces with low quantity demand (that is, they were not created in large numbers of identical pieces). Whatever you were paid to forge was less than the cost of producing a machine to create these specialised forgings, and -- as a percentage of total forged products created by modern industry -- your nearly-three decade output was probably quite modest. Though of unquestionable quality :0)

Leland

Edited February 9, 2009 by Leland

[TASMITH]

Hey Leland,

Yes as an industrial Blacksmith, i have produced Items which are not in demand in the mainstream but not all of what I did was specialized either.At Algoma were I took my apprenticeship we used to make the hooks for overhead cranes used out in the mills. These hooks ranged from 15 to 100 ton capacity. we didn't often make the larger capacity hooks (50 to 100 ton) but every fall and winter (when it was cooler) the blacksmith on the large forging hammer (3000 #) would forge several of the smaller capacity ones. That would be part of the 'specialized' work we would do.

At the other end of the shop were the smaller hammers were (1000 # and 1500 #) we would make small capacity hooks,and chain links, connect the hooks to a length of chain with our link then forge weld the link shut. We would make up four lengths of these hooks and chains with another larger link through the other end of the chain (also forge welded). Then we would also make an even larger link that these four chains would be hooked onto to make a four legged chain with hooks on the ends of each chain. The largest link would be welded by welders after we mounted all the chains.Their was one blacksmith and helper that spent at least four months out of the year and more just doing these assemblies.It was cheaper for us to produce them then it was to buy all the parts assembled.
Other Blacksmiths produced pry bars , wrecking bars, air chisel bits, cold cuts, uncoupling rods for railroad cars, and numerous more 'everyday' items. It was more cost effective for us to use in house steel and manpower to produce the same items that were for sale in the market place and we could deliver 'on demand' as well.

At my last place of employment, it was an auto parts forging operation using drop hammers and closed dies. I was employed as a Blacksmith and I made the tongs that the hammer men used in the forging operation. Due to the nature of drop forging the men used to use a LOT of tongs on a daily basis.
I would average about 30 pairs of tongs a week(new) in addition to repairs to existing tongs(10 to 15 pair).A lot of the time the tongs were damaged beyond repair thus the need for replacements(rookies and bad hammer men). I also made all the cold chisels, pry bars, hand hammers,pin punches and numerous other hand tools for use in the forge, maintenance and tool room.
In addition I used to heat treat all the tooling (cold coining dies, hot trimmers,shear blades etc) that were used in the operations.
Although it is true that automation has taken over a lot of the work that the blacksmith used to do there is obviously still a need and a desire for the trade to continue. If the need wasn't there I am sure that a site such as IFI would not be growing at the rate that it is and the blacksmiths that have been at the trade as long as they have would no longer be doing what they are. We are a 'specialized' breed of tradesman and have been for hundreds of years and I for one still see a demand for our skills even in this day and age.

Terry

[Leland]

Hey, Terry:

Thanks, I appreciate the explanation of your forging duties. :0)

It looks like the "buy or build" calculus of your employers clearly favoured a more vertically-integrated procurement process for the items you forged. A change in the variables (distance to suppliers of these specialised components, lower cost or faster turnaround from outside vendors) would/should have impacted that calculation's result.

My hunch is that blacksmithing is not a growing trade, and I suspect that the percentage of employed persons whose income is produced at the forge is very tiny. And that's why when people (at demonstrations, for example) start a conversation with the comment, "Blacksmith is a dying art..." I gently interrupt and correct them: It's not a dying art, but rather, it's a dying trade. As an Art, blacksmithing is flourishing at a rate never before seen in its millennia of service as a craft; artists wielding the hammer and anvil are more numerous now then ever before in the long history of ironworking.

I wonder, how many smiths here derive their sole income from the forge? How many would encourage their children to engage in smithing as a vocational pursuit? Just thinking out loud, offering my own myopic, non-scientific, small-data-sample opinion. Thanks for the counterpoint :0)

Leland